Episode 19 – Critical Incident Review – Fatal OIS SWAT Vehicle Takedown in San Bernardino

Jon Becker: This episode of the debrief will have a slightly different format. Today, we will be conducting a critical incident review of an actual event. We will discuss the timeline of the events as well as the aftermath, recovery, and lessons learned.

Our goal in this discussion is not to criticize or second guess any actions taken by those who responded to the event. Their actions are beyond reproach, their bravery is without question, and their sacrifices are real and need to be honored.

It is our hope that by discussing this event, we will learn from it and help to improve operator safety in the future. With regards to form, we will be using the officers actual names because they are heroes and they need to be remembered as such. For obvious reasons, we will not be using the suspects name.

My name is Jon Becker.

For the past four decades, I've dedicated my life to protecting tactical operators. During this time, I've worked with many of the world's top law enforcement and military units. As a result, I've had the privilege of working with the amazing leaders who take teams into the world's most dangerous situations.

The goal of this podcast is to share their stories in hopes of making us all better leaders, better thinkers, and better people.

Welcome to The Debrief!

On August 18th, 2021, the San Bernardino, California Police Department SWAT team was assigned to locate and arrest a suspect who had ambushed and attempted to murder a San Bernardino county sheriff's deputy the day before.

When the team located the suspect and attempted a vehicle takedown, he immediately ambushed them with a ten millimeter handgun, striking Officer Jordan Robison eight times as he was exiting the van, and Officer Chris Shipley once, Officer Robinson was hit in both forearms, his shoulder, his femur, his stomach below the armor, and took a grazing wound to his ribs. He was also hit twice in the abdomen, which were stopped by his armor.

Officer Shipley, despite being shot in the leg, was able to return fire along with a teammate, fatally wounding the suspect, Officer Shipley, without regard for his own injuries, then rendered life saving medical aid to Officer Robison. SWAT Medic Spencer Brombaugh, who was also on scene, provided lifesaving aid to officer Robison and kept him alive throughout the subsequent transport to the emergency room.

My guests today are Jordan Robison, Chris Shipley, and Spencer Brahmbaugh. Jordan, why don't we start with the lead up to this event? Like, what got you guys involved in this case?

Jordan Robison: Well, the initial intel that I was told when I was upstairs in person home training was that a deputy had been ambushed and we had heard all kinds of things from he had been shot in the head and was, you know, clinging to life to know he's fine, he's coherent and he's talking. But the common factor that we learned was that a deputy had been ambushed in the actual city.

And then as details started to unfold about the nature of the ambush, it kind of started to raise some red flags as far as who we were dealing with just due to the violence of it.

Jon Becker: So why don't you walk me through the ambush? What happened?

Jordan Robison: Yeah, so a deputy, on August 17th, the day prior to our shooting, a deputy attempted to pull a traffic stop for vehicle code violations on a white BMW. I think it was for, like, window tint or something minor. The vehicle then led him on a short pursuit, went around a blind corner. And what I mean by a blind corner is there was like an eight foot block wall, cylinder block wall. The vehicle went around that corner, parked. The driver exited the vehicle with a rifle.

And so by the time the deputy rounded that corner, it was a met with immediate and accurate gunfire. I think 39 rounds total were actually fired. The suspect then advanced while firing on the deputy, went around to the rear portion of the car with the intentions of executing the deputy, saw the deputy was down, then fled the scene back in his vehicle. So that's what we were dealing with.

Jon Becker: As AK-47, I remember correctly.

Jordan Robison: Yeah, yeah, it was an AK.

Jon Becker: So 30, some odd rounds of rifle fire. I have no idea how the deputy survived that.

Jordan Robison: No. It severed one of the fuel lines inside of the cardinal, inside of the deputy's vehicle, causing the vehicle to ignite. So by the time officers got there, the deputy's vehicle was completely just a fireball.

Jon Becker: So what kind of injuries did the deputy sustain?

Jordan Robison: He sustained bullet fragments to his face and his arm. I'm not sure if it was a bullet fragment or an actual round that he sustained to his arm, but he did sustain a lot of bullet fragments to his face, which required a lot of delicate surgeries, especially around his eyes, just to make sure you can make a full recovery.

Jon Becker: So this was a county deputy, correct? Right? San Bernardino PD is in the San Bernardino is in San Bernardino county. So you have a PD and then a county that surrounds it?

Jordan Robison: Yes, but there's pockets within our city itself that are policed by the county due to how the districting unfolds. So he was on patrol in the actual city itself, but it was a county pocket.

Jon Becker: Got it. And obviously, with that kind of relationship, the two agencies are close and work together regularly.

Jordan Robison: Yeah, yeah, definitely. We always when you're on patrol, you'll work hand in hand with deputies at times, especially when it comes to jurisdictional issues. And then, as far as our SWAT team, we were really close with the SBSO SWAT team as well.

Jon Becker: Okay, so that happens the day before. And then when do you guys get put onto the case?

Jordan Robison: I wasn't out there at the scene. I know Chris was working special investigations at the time, so he probably might know more than so.

Jon Becker: Chris, when did you first personally get involved in this thing?

Chris Shipley: It was the day that the deputy got ambushed. I was notified again. I was working within that specialized team. We happened to be in Los Angeles county at that time. They asked me to come back to the station, so I shot all the way back to San Bernardino. During this time, there was some jurisdictional issues of who was really going to take it.

Was it going to be the county or was it going to be the city? Just based upon where the incident did occur during that time, it was things to note too, was just to kind of put little things in perspective. The type of person that we're dealing with as well is following the initial ambush of the deputy, the team that I'm currently on, the county SWAT team, was out on surveillance on the vehicle itself within apartment complex.

Again, this county that we work for and the city that we work for is one of the most violent cities in the nation. And the apartment complex where it was located was notorious for just being influenced by a lot of gang members, too. The vehicle that was involved, a separate party that wasn't related to the initial incident, comes out. They apprehend him, and he has an additional fire on him as a firearm on him as well.

So again, they were going back and forth of who was going to take over the case. Ultimately, the decision was, we're not going to do anything tonight. We're going to pick it up tomorrow. So I leave, go to my normal duties the following day. Sometime during, like, mid afternoon, I get notified by one of our team leaders, basically saying like, hey, they've located Ollacong. It's our case.

We need to start heading towards Hemet where he was located. Hemet for where? The weekend. We work for San Bernardino City within, just within Riverside county, the next neighboring county next to us, like a 30 minutes basic drive time to our city's jurisdiction. I started heading out there, out there after getting permission from one of my sergeants who was an ex SWAT guy too, as well. During this time, as I'm getting there, they say, okay, never mind, dude, he's en route back to San Bernardino. We think he's going to come back to San Bernardino.

So we'll meet back at the station. I get to the station where I meet with our tag medic, Spencer Bumbaugh, and we start kind of discussing what we're going to be dealing with. From there, we basically get tasked with some sort of vehicle takedown to try to apprehend him at his residence itself, again, in one of the notorious areas.

Our whole sire city is notorious, so it's kind of hasn't really put much into perspective, but it's a. It's based on the far outskirts of our city. It's which geographically, it's the furthest point within our municipality to the nearest trauma centers. With that being said to. It's the location of itself is a notorious gang area where there's only a few couple ways to get in and out, and it's all heavily gang influenced. That was a big red flag, too, which I should have. I should have paid more attention to these little kind of. These little triggers that kind of could accumulate to kind of compound to the type of individual that we're really dealing with.

Jon Becker: Yeah. So, I mean, just. Just to clarify, this guy shot a deputy, or, you know, tried to execute a deputy and then he went to work.

Chris Shipley: Yeah. So in that way, he tried to try to execute the deputy was just. I mean, again, this is a hyper vigilant, the most dedicated attacker. These are like, besides some radicalized group of organization. Like, you don't ask. Like, that's one thing I will respect this guy for is the amount of. Is how vigilant he was to be able to make those type of decisions and to execute those accurately. I saw the vehicle after two of the deputy that was involved. And I mean, you know, I'm talking accurate gunfire all through the headrest. To this day, I don't know how he survived with especially the amount of injuries that he did have.

Jon Becker: That's a miracle. I mean, to have 39 AK-47 rounds shot at you from close range and not die is just. That's the first miracle of this case.

Chris Shipley: Yeah, I'm talking the vehicle look like swiss cheese, and I'm talking right through the driver's side of the vehicle itself.

Jon Becker: Okay, so he's coming back to San Bernardino. You guys pulled the team together.

Chris Shipley: Yes. So we have a small element team in the van itself with some different contingencies and marked vehicles. The idea was to try to apprehend it before he got into his residence, located in what we classify as, like, the rainbow reedy area, which is the 21st street. Like, just gangster. It's like a hood to try to apprehend him there.

Again, to put some things in perspective, too, which is some things. Red flags, which I should have been more cognizant of, is, like, we've had officers involved, shooters in that place where they try to lynch. Like, it's – you have every single person that comes out, and, I mean, it's violent. Like you're on a skirmish line, just trying to watch every single corner because there's armed, essentially, gang members everywhere.

Again, red flag. That should have been a place. I probably wouldn't want to try to apprehend the suspect, too, just because of how easy it is for him to get to different locations as well, just because they're more townhome style residences that are just lined in a specific direction, a pattern.

From there, he doesn't end up coming to the location itself and starts doing. He goes to an alternate residence again, within the sitting county of San Bernardino. He stays there for a short duration. Again, we have our airship that's above him. That's a fixed wing that's keeping. That's monitoring surveillance on him as well. He gets out of the vehicle that he was transported from work, and then another individual arrives. What he was later identified as is like a. Like a hood uncle. It's just some sort of like another, I guess, I don't even know, a mentor. Yes. That he gets picked up by him, and then they start going to all these different locations.

So they go to, like, four different locations within a small proximity. Yeah. These big red flags based with all the counter surveillance, too, that I should have been more wary of and I should have been more vocal about to. But again, I went on the realm of just trying to. Trying to find the explanation, because it is. That's not out of the North for San Bernardino, too. This is what they – A lot of them do, especially these. These notorious gangsters. They just. They're so spot on with this, too. That's just their normal day to day is where they do counterfeit, because they usually wanted some wanted vigilant.

Jon Becker: Yeah, I mean, the guy knows he shot a deputy the day before. He knows people are looking for him. He runs a counter surveillance program to protect himself.

Chris Shipley: Yes. And he was unreal, unbeknownst to us. And what we should have just anticipated that he was. He already made every single officer, and he already knew officers were on him. He picked out the vehicles that were involved, that were doing the surveillance.

And again, this is what we're talking about. Like, a truly dedicated someone that's, like, is the most elite. Like, you have the most elite operator. And they function at that different. That type of capacity. That's the other side of it. They function at that type of capacity.

Jon Becker: So he's a tier one dirtbag.

Chris Shipley: You can see. You can say that. So he does all this counter surveillance through, again, through, like, a small, immediate area where he finally reaches to a specific street where he. They make, like, a turn into again, like, at a high rate of speed. This is stuff that's not going to relate to us as well, because it would change again, I wouldn't change a lot of things. It's just been more red flags to notice. Is kind of the type of driving, too, because we can't see it. We're just getting stuff that's getting broadcast over our channel. They park along a curbside.

Again, this should have been, like, a huge red flag for me is, why are they doing that? Why are they parking along this curbside? What I think it was they parked there. He wasn't. He was trying to set us up. He wasn't hedged. He was anticipating just to kill all of us and then probably flee over the next wall line. That's what I imagined he was probably going to do.

So as we basically get the green light, like, this is where we're going to do the takedown. You couldn't ask for a better backdrop, though, as well. It's kind of one of the silver linings with it is, as we make that final turn to is we had a specific plan in place. Once we contacted the vehicle again, a lot of this stuff wasn't getting relayed to as far as what the airship above us was seeing, too, is because he had his hand on the gun already. He was looking back, just waiting for us.

So as we come to contact the vehicle, doing like a. Like a vehicle containment technique. He's already exited out the vehicle, and he starts firing. And I'm talking accurate gunfire, too, basically upper thoracic of where we're all positioned.

Jon Becker: So let me just reset for a second. So he's. He and his hood uncle are pulled over on the side of the road. The airship spots him, identifies that. You guys decide that that's where you're going to take him down. You're in a van. Van pulls up and hits the passenger. The driver's side door. So he's in the passenger seat of the car.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: And the van. The van hits the driver's side door, and you guys begin to exit the van.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: Okay. And he exits the car immediately. I mean, you can see in the surveillance video, you watch him pull the gun out as you're pulling up. So, I mean, he's decided this is going to be his last stand, apparently, yes. And as he exits the car, he begins firing at the van door as you guys are going to exit.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: Okay. So, Jordan, you're the first one out the door.

Jordan Robison: Yeah.

Jon Becker: So, walk me through it. You. You open the van door. You guys hit it, hit the car, open the van door, and whatever.

Jordan Robison: So, before that, as we approach, we hit the – Hit the car for the, I think they call it bumping. The purpose of it is to throw the occupants inside whatever vehicle that you're bumping off, because it's supposed to be a surprise technique where, yeah, they're sitting there, and then all of a sudden, their car gets hit. And then once they're figuring that out, we're getting in position.

So it kind of gives you an advantage. But like Chris pointed out, the problem was we had no advantage because we had no element of surprise. He was watching us the whole time in the rearview mirror with his hand on the gun. So by the time we execute the bumping technique, his hand. His left hand is already on the door, and he already has a gun in his other hand.

So he exits the car as we're doing the bump technique. And another problem with this van that we're using is the door doesn't work right. It's had malfunctions for years and years and years. We've known about it.

So the problem is, I have to hold the door partially open. I can't close it, because if you close it, that door is notorious for not wanting to open again, and you can't have that during that situation. You can't have it all the way open, because he'll see us coming, and he'll see guys all the way down the road, will expose ourselves way too early, earlier than we want it to.

So I'm holding the door partially open as we approach this, looking back, I don't know how I'm supposed to hold a hundred pound van door. When you slam it closed or when you slam against an object, all that hundred pounds goes flying forward. And I was a strong guy, and I couldn't hold it closed. So as we execute the bumping technique that Van dor slams shut, I fall directly onto my face. I think Ernie fell next to me. I think you maintained your balance, Chris.

So I fall instantly. Instinctively, I didn't even tell myself to do this. Just instinctively, I spring up, open up the door, and at that point, I'm looking down the barrel of his gun. I jump out of the van. I remember looking down at the ground to make sure I didn't eat s***. As I jump out, making sure my feet were on the ground.

Now I remember looking up and sighting my rifle. And I, at that time, I just remember being hit multiple times as I'm doing this. I remember feeling the heat, feeling the impacts, feeling. I think I felt my arm break. I didn't feel the second one until I landed on the ground, but I felt one of my arms break. And I take an instinctive step to my right to get out of the way.

I didn't even consciously remember trying to sight him on my gun. I just remember taking a step to my right and then getting hit in my femur. And then I, that's when I fell. And I kind of landed on my front side and then kind of rolled to my back. And I remember at one point trying to push myself off the ground.

And that's when I realized both my arms were broken. I already knew my leg was broken. That's when I realized it been hitting my stomach. I could feel my shoulder burning. I knew, I'd been hitting my shoulder. That's when I kind of realized the extent at which I'd been wounded. And I knew at that point, and I was kind of relying on everybody else around me.

Jon Becker: So, so you, you actually get out of the van, Chris, you're still in the van, right?

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: So you're Jordan's first out the door. You're second out the door.

Chris Shipley: Yes. After we basically made the contact with the vehicle, he's already exiting too. And again, you see this perfectly in, in the video surveillance two is, is he starts firing immediately before, essentially, the doors open because of the issues that were, that arose. I remember, as the doors get open, you just, you see the gun just, you're looking straight down the barrel again within a close proximity to, again, just straight CQB, close quarter paddle. And then he's just firing. And then as, as jordans get out of the way, I get struck.

And I remember, I remember that feeling, too. It was just like I immediately got so mad. So he's again, he's shooting. That was one thing that was like, again, you have like, these different. A lot of the different during, like, these big instances. For me, it's always like something that's really, really heightened. For me this time it was the – There was the auditory, like the sound of. It was like, it sounded like explosions.

So as he's firing, again, it was a ten mil, too. So as he's firing, I get shot. Jordan's essentially is running around. These are just fundamentals, and this is one thing that we will. That I want to just reach to the viewer, too, is a lot of these components and these things that are, that are practiced isn't just applicable to one type of scenario or operation. These are concepts and principles.

When it's in its basic form, is what shifts. It shifts the reactionary gap into our favor. We're always going to be behind the curve, too. We're always going to have what they always, they always quantify as, like that second and a half perception reaction time to. Even when you, like, people say there's deadly rights, there's a perception reaction time, then you have to adjust for that.

When it comes down to that old dogfighting theory, is the UDA theory, like the observe, orient, decide, and act. That's where they get that second half, too, is we're always going to be behind the curve, no matter what. We have to perceive the threat and then we have to react accordingly to it.

Jon Becker: But in this case, he's firing at you before you even open the door.

Chris Shipley: Yes. And then this is one thing that Jordan did, was these are, these are the fundamental components of CQB is essentially using your momentum and your tempo to run in a specific direction that shifts the angle, too. So now he – Instead of it just being a one on one gunfight, what it was from one threshold to the suspect itself, his, Jordan allowed it to be a two on one gunfight, three on one gunfight by creating that angle and distance. And those are just fundamentals. These are rotating to the most basic foundation of a lot of these different types of tactics.

So Jordan runs, I don't know what point. I think it was like, right when the door get open. That's where I got shot. I see him and he's running and like, he's the suspect running laterally or moving laterally, too. I engaged the suspect and I remember watching him just fall. It was like a light switch.

Yeah. Once I saw the suspect fall, my first, I just had to get to Jordan, I heard Jordan screaming. And another thing that, again, was, like, my first, again, my, for some reason, my hearing was just, like, elevated. This didn't sense itself was I could hear him. And I was like, I gotta get to Jordan. I have to get to Jordan.

So I merely ran to Jordan. And I was trying to just try to triage him as quickly as I could. And the first thing that popped into me was arm was bleeding really, really, really bad. And initially, like, I was looking at, like, the bigger limbs to itself. I was looking at his chest, and we were wearing all black, too, but his arm, we're wearing, luckily, at this time, it was just wearing short sleeve polo shirts. So his arm was bleeding so bad. I was like, all right, I got a treehouse. His arm, like, it was gushing blood.

So I took out my tourniquet, I started applying it to his right arm. And then during that time, like, a bunch of different people started showing up. These people from these different types of task force and units, too, that were involved in the whole investigation, they started getting on scene along with some of our other operators, too, as well.

And then at that point, I remember thinking to myself was like, I knew I got shot. I mean, it's for those that say, like, they didn't know they got hit. I don't know how that works. Like, you must be at a different, elevated response. But I was like, I haven't died yet. And at that time, I thought it was extremely delayed, too. I was like, I haven't bled out yet, so I must be all right.

So once all the people started getting, I saw Spencer get there, too. And that was after Spencer got done there, I was like, my job's done. Spencer's gonna handle it. I remember thinking that, too. It's like, I can't. He's got it.

So then I kind of pulled myself away, and I started asking other officers if they have any tourniquets just because I can turn myself again. I remember thinking I was like, I haven't died yet, so I must be fine after that. You can see, and this is the thing, too, is we preach a lot of these things to different officers.

And everybody always says, oh, yeah, I – When you get confronted with the truly dedicated combatant, it's like, oh, you just eliminate the threat, and then you move on to triage and do all these different types of things. It's a lot easier. But what does that truly look like? And in that moment, you got to really understand what those moments truly look like.

Jon Becker: I mean, to put it in scale because you've described it obviously slowly, but this entire event, from the suspect's foot hitting the ground to the suspect is shot in the field and down. You're down. You know, you're putting a tourniquet on Jordan. That entire event is 22 seconds, and the shooting part of it is about 4 seconds.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: So, like, you know, you talk about engaging a dedicated combatant, 30 rounds under 4 seconds. Like, it is difficult to describe how violent this encounter was and how quickly as you guys engaged, how quickly you came under fire, and how quickly the entire event was over. And yet, as you're describing it, it obviously plays out in your brain more slowly.

And each of you guys have told me that you have this kind of slowed perception, which is one of the things you talk about in traumatic events, is, you know, a compression of versus a slowing of time. But just to give the listener perspective, the shooting took 3 seconds and had 30 some odd rounds swapped between the two of you. Jordan has hit eight times. You're hit once. It's hard to explain how quick and violent the whole thing was until you see the video.

Chris Shipley: Yeah. And that's one thing to remember, too, is how much the body can truly endure, too, is people just say, like, oh, yeah, you can just. You can fire, and that just eliminates a threat. But it's not. It's not true like that. Especially hunters that hunt, too, they understand it basically, like in human anatomy and physiology, what, biologically, how much your body can endure under that type of stress. It's. I mean, it's amazing.

Jon Becker: I mean, Jordan's a perfect testament to that. You know, he was shot eight times and is sitting here with us having a conversation. So we are truly ridiculously durable.

Chris Shipley: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I put that lot to his physical capability, too, as well as, I mean, he was at the peak. His abs had abs at that time.

Jordan Robison: Left in there.

Jon Becker: It's amazing that the bullets were even able to penetrate the muscle.

Chris Shipley: Well, that. Yeah, that thing, too. And then they. Obviously, the surgical scar goes right down the center of his abs. It makes him even bigger. So it's the strategy. Yeah, it was a win-win for him.

Jordan Robison: I do got to say that when I was hitting the stomach, the bullet went in through one side and failed to exit throughout the other side of my abs because the muscle actually.

Jon Becker: So we're just thinking the muscles actually caught the bullet.

Jordan Robison: My muscles stopped a ten mil.

Jon Becker: Got it. Fantastic!

Chris Shipley: I think that was more the cumberband on the type of armor that you use.

Jon Becker: Okay, so then let's pick back up. So, Jordan, you exit. Chris exits. Your teammate continues to engage the suspect until he's down. You fire at him once or twice, and then your teammate is continuing to engage him as you're turning to care for Jordan. The suspect is down at this point.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: One of your teammates closes on him to ensure that he's ineffective and neutralized. Walk me through again, putting the tourniquet. When you first come up on Jordan, what do you see?

Chris Shipley: The screaming again, that was the big thing for me. And then just the amount of blood that was already coming out of his arm, too, was like, oh, I was like. It was arterial. That was the first thing I thought. And again, I don't have the capabilities like someone like Spencer and stuff like that. But you start to. A lot of the training and stuff like that that he's preached to us when it becomes.

And this is one thing that resonated with me, too, is what he discusses is a lot of this stuff becomes like, he worked on Jordan. Like, it was just like another individual, another victim on the street for him, another mope, someone that was just insignificant to him without the. And that just shows you the type of caliber of one of his capabilities and then two, just the, we'll say, like, a lot of the hard skills that's probably ingrained with him over three decades, I don't know, maybe four decades now he's getting old.

But again, yeah, that's been able to just transform who as a person, too. And, I mean, obviously, I'm. I'm swayed a little way, but I think so highly of them both just personally in their everyday life. And you see that in their families, too, as well. And you can see the type of characters and attributes that have just been kind of. Kind of developed in their kids is and then their physical capabilities, too.

And then, I mean, like, Spencer's one of the best shooters when he was on our team, and one of the most athletic people I've ever seen, too, is just. He's just naturally capable. Jordan, not so much, though.

Jon Becker: So you guys had an organized Tac med program prior to this, right? Like, it's not just that you were training individual team members. You actually had an embedded tech medic with you.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: Which is Spencer. So talk me through. Talk me through that. What did that, you know, what. What capability did that bring to the team?

Chris Shipley: Oh, I mean, it was. I believe it to my core is that saved Jordan's life.

Jon Becker: Okay, so, Chris, you put the tourniquet on Jordan, start to control the bleeding, and Spencer runs up.

Chris Shipley: Yes.

Jon Becker: So let's pick up with you, Spence, like, you at that point. Start me with, like, where you were when the shooting goes down, and then walk me through what happens.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: So, while part of the team was in the van, they were getting closer to the subject, and while he was running counter, the sergeant at the time had called off the two marked units that were supposed to trail the van in. And I was in an unmarked dodge Durango that had been converted into, like, an ambulance.

And so I was only one man in there. I didn't have a partner with me at that moment, so I decided to hang back with the marked units. And we were probably two or three blocks away, maybe a quarter mile away from these guys. When we heard the airship put out that they were making contact with the subject, shots were fired. And that was something that Chris and I had talked right when we saw each other at the station.

You know, Chris said, you know what's going to happen today? This guy is going to shoot it out with us. And I said, absolutely. Anyone that saw that video from the sheriff's deputy, like, we knew what was coming. And so the airship put it out fully expected there to be shots fired. What I wasn't ready for, and we were on it. It was the two marked units, and I were code three up the street, 100 miles an hour, and moving towards these guys. And then they said, you have officers down.

And I knew which guys were in that van. You know, these two guys, specifically our families, hang out together, and we hang out together, and it was just like, holy s***, here we go. And I arrived on scene. I parked my vehicle and grabbed my bag. My bag is specific to just ALS equipment and things that these guys don't carry, so it's more advanced than a basic IFAC. And I get there to find Chris putting a tourniquet on Jordan's leg after he had put one on his arm.

And I think I said to Chris, I go, what's wrong with you? Because I'm shot. So you should take care of that. He said, okay. And he kind of leaves, and I get in there, and everyone. What we had trained these guys to do is, hey, start finding wounds, start getting clothes off, start getting his equipment off, because that's all stuff that just takes time, and we want to make sure that we know what we're working with before we load them up into my car. And so that's what these guys were doing. They were finding wounds. They were putting tourniquets on. He had two tourniquets on his, one on each arm, one on his left leg.

And then I started kind of doing a head to toe hands on assessment, like, touching everything. I remember right after I talked to Chris, I look at Jordan, and Jordan screaming, I can't breathe. I thought, oh, s***. Like, this is getting worse as we're moving along. And it was just an officer who was pulling on Jordan's helmet as hard as they could to get it off of his head.

Jordan Robison: I do remember that somebody tried to yank my head off.

Jon Becker: So it's not bad enough he's been shot eight times. Someone's gonna choke him out with his own helmet.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: And so, to my relief, he was breathing fine. He was just getting choked. And so we hit that buckle, and the helmet came off and then started cutting everything off. We could cut his body armor off, cut his belt off, and then guys started working up the pant legs. And the wound that stood out to me was the one in his abdomen. And there was a – On his left, lower side of his abdomen, he had a – The abdominal wall was sticking out a little bit, so we could see, like, his intestines coming out, protruding from his abdomen.

And to me, that was a big red flag. Like, this meant we were either going to stay on scene for a little while longer while I put an abdominal tourniquet on him, or we were going to load him up and go. So, like Chris had said, it seemed like we were there forever. Like, I was working. My hands were going fast. I, like, we were doing all the things we needed to do, but I just couldn't get out of there fast enough with Jordan, you know, we just could not get him off of that street fast enough.

Guys were repositioning my vehicle, bringing up the backboard that we have, and I'm trying to palpate his abdomen and make sure we didn't have anything that was. That was bleeding, anything major, like his aorta, that was bleeding out in his stomach, because that would have called for putting that tourniquet on his abdomen, which is something that comes with its own set of risks. Putting that on means that he really only, like, we have to get to the hospital in 20 minutes with that on, or we cause other problems for him and his long term survivability.

So he didn't have any signs of any swelling in his abdomen, anything like that. And it all felt really good. Like, there wasn't blood floating around there. But we had also, had also only been on scene 20 seconds after it happened, and there just maybe wasn't enough time.

So it was one of those things. We got him on the backboard, and the guys picked him up, and we started moving towards the car. And the driver, another SWAT officer, was in the car. He was heads up, and he hopped in my vehicle, which is something we had trained like, hey, here's the keys. Here's where they are. Here's how you guys get into it. You know, and put in gear and just the hangups on a vehicle, they don't normally drive right where the lights are and everything.

And so we get Jordan loaded up, and we start driving down to the hospital, and I get in the back, and after moving them, we always train like, hey, check your tourniquets, check your treatments. And the great thing was, Jordan was talking the whole time. Didn't matter what he was talking about. He was just talking.

Jordan Robison: So screaming, yelling.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, I was happy to hear it. If he was talking, that was just one less thing that I had to worry about in that moment. And so I start with his right arm, which was furthest away from me. I'm on his left side.

Jon Becker: You're in the back of the Durango?

Spencer Brahmbaugh: I'm in the back of the Durango next to him. Yeah. So his head is behind the driver, and his feet are at the tailgate of the Durango.

Jon Becker: Got it.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: And then I'm sitting next to him in that rear passenger seat. So, yeah, we're in the back, and I start going over everything again. And his shoulder. He has a wound in his shoulder, like a through and through, too high for a tourniquet. And it's bleeding, but it's not something that. It's not bleeding terribly bad. Not something. I'm going to pack right now. I'm going to continue checking everything else. His right arm was bleeding significantly after we had moved him.

So I tightened up that tourniquet, got that controlled left arm, tightened it up some more, and then his left leg was also bleeding after moving him. So I ended up putting a second tourniquet on that leg. Got that tightened down, and I go, hey, man, where do you hurt? Which is kind of a silly question to ask a guy that's been shot eight times, but he goes, it hurts between my legs.

And I go, s***, like anywhere else. And he said, no, that's what hurts the most. And so got all his clothes off at that point and checked everything to make sure there's no other blood that we are missing, any other wounds that need to be packed. And it was an intimate moment, I think, for us.

Jordan Robison: But at least she looked me in the eyes, you know.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: It was a lot to manage, you know, but after that, and we're driving. So let me back up. Prior to this, as we're moving locations with this suspect, like, I'm reworking which hospital we're going to go to because we have a couple trauma centers. We have two trauma centers within 2 miles of each other, so which one's going to be easier for us to get to it, you know, two or three in the afternoon with traffic.

So I'm trying to keep that up on my iPad that I've mounted in my vehicle. And, it's like a 30 minutes drive for us with traffic about a 12 miles, 30 minutes is what it says. And so I have that in my mind, and I know we're moving fast because the guy driving is, I hate. He's calling out turns and bumps and dips and we're hitting them hard. And every time Jordan's like, in more and more pain.

So we're a couple minutes into this ride, I get on my radio and I call our dispatch, the fire department dispatch, and I asked them to give the trauma center a heads up. Like, hey, I need you to let them know we're in route with an officer that's been shot multiple times. ETA is about ten minutes.

And that's something that they're typically able to handle for us. If I don't have time to call the hospital direct, which is a much lengthier report, I can just call or dispatch and they'll make that happen, make that notification to the trauma center. So our dispatch center was unable to make that notification because the trauma center had just moved to a new wing of the hospital, so they didn't have the updated phone number.

So as we're driving, I remember Freddie, I'm getting ready to start an IV in Jordan's neck because I couldn't start one. Either of his arms…

Jon Becker: Tourniquets on, everything else, practically.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, yeah, everything had tourniquets on. And, so I'm going for an iv in his neck, short of putting an IO, an IV into his bone, into his sternum. And so he had a really good vein in his neck at that. At that point I go, this is what we're going to do. And tell the driver, I go, hey, I'm going to start an iv. And he goes, we're going to hit a dip. I said, okay. And so we hit this dip, and we really hit that dip. That was a dip that was airborne a little bit.

And I remember my hand went up and stuck the needle, the catheter, right into the headrest of the passenger seat. I'm just like, this could not f****** get any worse. Which it wasn't a big deal. It was just one of those, like, those little moments that sort of crushes you and you're like, God, it was going so good.

So there's another catheter right next to where I'm working. I had all my stuff set up, and so I open it and we end up getting a line in his neck. And something that presents with trauma patients is how profuse and how sweaty they are. And that was Jordan, you know, just. He was Ashen, he was pale, he was profusely sweating. And so nothing was really sticking to him. So I had to hold this IV in place. I had started an IV drip of a medication to help with clotting. And so that was hanging in my car. And that's a medication we have to give over a certain period of time. And so it's called TXA.

So we put the TXA in the bag, and the bag is now flowing into Jordan's neck, which is something that is, if he does have a significant bleed in his abdomen, this is something that's going to help his body maintain the clots that it's making.

I think we asked Freddie to turn the heater on. Freddie was driving, and because we're just trying to keep them warm, get the TXA on. And then, I think shortly after that, we ended up making it to the ER in about nine minutes.

Jordan Robison: Well, the wrong ER entrance, but, yeah, yeah.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: The wrong ER entrance. So, yeah.

Jon Becker: I think there's actually a story associated with the wrong ER entrance that is kind of a funny one, if I remember correctly.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah. So we pull up to the old ER entrance, and this had been. They had moved the ER within days. And it's something that we should have known, something I should have known that that is 100% on me. Like, that update should have been pushed out to these guys. And Freddy goes, we're here.

And I look up, I go, we're at the wrong ER. And he goes, where's the right ERDE? And there's a security guard. You know, my car's got lights on it. We're with a convoy of multiple other police cars and some security guards in the parking lot. You guys are at the wrong place. And Freddie rolls down the window, and I roll down my window, and we pretty much kidnap this guy. We say, get in the car right now. Like, just get in the car. And he didn't know what to do.

And so I'm opening my door to go and get him, and Freddy's calling him over, and he ends up getting in the car. He's sitting on my rifle, on my helmet, on another medbag I have, and he's a bigger, bigger guy, and he's trying to fit into this car.

Jordan Robison: He struggled.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: So we're all yelling at him.

Jon Becker: His day's gonna get worse.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: It gets worse in a moment. So we. He's directing us, directing Freddie, and I'm talking to Jordan. I'm trying to keep this iv in his neck. Nothing. The tape's not sticking. And I'm like, Jordan, just keep talking to me, dude. Like, we're getting through this. We're almost there. Like, you know, hang on. And we make, I'm looking up now. I'm paying attention to where we're going. Like, this guy's giving us the right directions, and so tells us, turn left.

And they says, turn left again, and it's right there. I mean, we were 300 yards off, but just a long drive on the road, and, you know, took a little while with traffic and stuff. And Freddie just goes in the wrong lanes of traffic, goes opposing, and, like, in the bicycle lane, and I just hear screaming. And I look down, like, Jordan, it's okay, dude. We're here. And it's the security guard. Screaming. Says, security guard screaming.

Jon Becker: Screaming the scream of a man who's been kidnapped and is now driving the wrong way into oncoming traffic with people he doesn't know.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Arms, people.

Jon Becker: One of them is bleeding profusely in the back.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: With a random rifle poking him in the back that he's sitting on. Yeah. So we end up getting to the ER, park the vehicle, and Chris had gotten there just before us, right? Yeah, yeah. So they knew Chris was there. And then they bring a gurney out to my car. And so we open up the back, and I are pulling Jordan out, and it's another moment where we're just dropping guns out of the car. Like, Jordan's gun belt and handgun or whole belt comes off of him into the parking lot. And letting these guys know, hey, he needs blood. Like, you need to get the blood bank and get them. Get them going, because Jordan's going to need it.

And pretty much once we get into the hospital, the paramedic gives like, a trauma handoff to the physicians and the nurses that are in charge, lets them know any history, medical history of the patient, any allergies, any medications, and most importantly, like, where is he hit, and what have I done to fix that? So it's a pretty quick thing.

But, yeah, I just remember as soon as we got in there and they got to work on Jordan, and it was a relief to me from doing that for so long when we were five, six minutes and him being in the trauma bay, and they didn't just take him straight to surgery.

And so, you know, that if they're. This hospital isn't taking him to the. Or performing surgical interventions, you know, they're in the trauma bay, then, like, we're doing pretty good, you know, on the fact that he didn't lose consciousness and that these officers that were on scene were putting tourniquets on and finding bleeders right away like this. That was the stuff that really made a difference, was everyone kind of doing their part to make sure he's okay. And through all the trainings and all the things that we've done, guys like Chris just.

Yeah, he knew he was hit, but we knew Jordan was down. It was different. So when Chris is hit, like he. He said, like, it was different. I knew I was hurt, but I knew Jordan was down, needed help more than I did. And that's something that he said to me, and that is super impressive, but it's guys like that that stepped up and. And really helped make the difference in this. This was a truly a team event, you know, when it comes down to just everything after the shooting, all the medical care, like, every guy that put hands on Jordan had a part in it. You know, the guy that instead of.

And I don't even know who it was, instead of just hanging out and trying to put a tourniquet on, like, he knew to go to my car and get the backboard, you know, the guy that went to my car to move it into position so that we can get out of there a little quicker, like, stuff like that. Those spots that they trained to be in the. That they didn't hesitate to get themselves into to make sure that he had the best outcome possible.

Jon Becker: Yeah. I think two things struck me in watching the video. The first is how calm and professional the team was initially. And when you arrive, the team and you. It is very clinical. It's calm. I mean, everybody around the scene is running around freaking out, but the team itself, and you are calm, deliberate.

Everything is done in a specific order. Like, it just, it looked rehearsed, it looked practiced. It was not a team surprised that somebody went down and having no idea what to do. It was a team realizing, okay, this is what we trained for. Everybody do this. And even the communication among the guys, when you look at the body worn, is calm. I mean, obviously it's urgent, but it's calm.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah. It's a different level with this group of guys. Like I was saying, everyone knows their job and they know everyone else's job. So if there's a gap to be filled, we have guys that are filling it. If there's work to be done, they're finding it. And it was the same with him being down as it is, you know, us making an entry on a warrant.

So just that day, it was, I, like Chris and I had said he was the first guy I saw, and we knew, like, we knew this was not going to be something that was just going to. This wasn't going to be a guy that was just going to put his hands up, be like, hey, you got me.

Jon Becker: No. Yeah, you watch the video. It's very clear, he intended to die that day and was going to take everybody he could with him.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah. And so that was when I was leaving the fire station. I took a few extra minutes and got everything ready. Like anything extra in my car that didn't need to be there wasn't in there, you know, and everything was set up where it needed to be.

Jon Becker: I think there's a thousand, like, one of the reasons that I wanted to sit down with you guys is there are a thousand little lessons learned here that, you know, by all accounts, this day could have had a very, very different ending.

And so one of the things I want to do is I want to go through kind of from a team standpoint, from a medical standpoint, what are our lessons learned here? What are the things that other teams need to know? Because had you guys not been as well prepared, we would not be sitting here with Jordan. I think that's a very safe thing to say, considering the nature of his injuries and the number of his injuries.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, I don't necessarily think there was anything that I did that was spectacular that another paramedic couldn't have done.

Chris Shipley: No, I truly disagree at that point.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Well, one of the things I love.

Jon Becker: About all three of you, none of you have taken responsibility for anything. You know, Chris being a perfect example, he will not mention this, so I will that he was given the CATO award for valor for taking a gunshot wound to the leg and using his own tourniquet on Jordan, which was a bold move, betting that somebody else would have a tourniquet.

But, like it is, anybody that watches the video in this sees a number of heroic acts. I mean, Chris being the first one that really stands out at you as a guy that shot through the leg, taking a tourniquet to put it on his teammate, and reacting that quickly. And I think that it's very easy in these kind of situations to overlook the individual acts of heroism. And a lot of those things happened before the event.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, this was all stuff that, you know, just these. This team saying that, yeah, we want to take a guy who. His first job wasn't being a cop, it was being a paramedic and a firefighter, and we're going to send him through the police academy and send him through SWAT school and put him on entries, and he's going to be embedded in this team. Having a paramedic that close to the team is. It's that timeline.

It's how much blood has he lost? How fast do we get the TXA on? How fast do we get him, you know, out of that, away from that point of injury to the trauma center? Like, yeah, and any other paramedic could have done paramedic things that day, but the fact that they had the trust in me to be that close and with the team, you know, and I told Jordan, like, one of my regrets with this whole thing was when they said, hey, just unmarked vehicles only.

Like, yeah, maybe I should have stayed. Maybe I should have pulled up to one of those marked cars and be like, hey, why don't you get in with me? Let's go. Because now at least this guy has to make a decision. You know, it's either the white van or this gray car. And I got a shooter in my seat next to me, you know, or I'm in the seat, whoever's shooting. But we have another gun on them. You know, that could have been. Maybe Jordan was only shot twice. Maybe he wasn't shot at all. There's all those what ifs, right?

Jon Becker: Having watched the video, unless you guys shot the guy before he got out of the car, I don't think there's much you could have done, because by the time anybody could have engaged him, he was almost out of rounds.

Jordan Robison: Yeah, or you jump out of your car and you get shot, and then we're all scrambling, trying to figure out how to save the medic.

Jon Becker: Yeah. Which would not have gone as well.

Chris Shipley: But I think that's one of the things that we train for, is we don't train for everybody, usually. I mean, people define success. I mean, it's ambiguous in itself, but they always base their. Their type of tactics on the best case scenario, not the worst. And he's a truly dedicated cabinet. And just to piggyback off what Spencer was saying is, he says any paramedic had done this. No, I disagree. I've seen a lot of different types of paramedics, and they do get exposed to a lot of different type of caliber of traumas within our city.

But what he did in those moments and how calm he was, because I remember this thinking this to myself, too, was. I remember looking at him and being, oh, thank God he's here. I remember just thinking that to myself, being like, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have felt that calm within it.

Jon Becker: But, see, that goes back to training. That goes back to knowing the capabilities of your teammates and preparing for worst case scenario. Right? It's like you said, it's very easy to train for best case scenario. Really? You are preparing for worst case scenario.

Chris Shipley: Yes, but that's just the higher level of learning that, like, you have someone. I'm just using these guys specifically, like Spencer, where he's a high level learning. Like, yeah, he runs the paramedic tab and everything like that, but he's not a paramedic. He's leaps and bounds, what you classify as, like, a typical paramedic just because of his capabilities and within those types of moments itself, too, especially when you have some sort of. You have a lot of emotional connection to, again, the person that you're triaging.

Jon Becker: Yeah, that's one of the most amazing things about this whole thing is that the three of you were close friends prior, and so it is, you know, your brother's down.

Jordan Robison: Yeah, I remember one of the things you told me afterwards, one of the things you felt guilty about, Spence, you said, like, I felt guilty that I treated you like I would treat anyone else. And, you know, it. It wasn't just you. It was the whole team around me. Everybody was just calm, just putting on tourniquets. It literally felt like a training exercise. I mean, I'm screaming and my legs exploded. But like everybody else, their faces. We've all seen them in training. We've all played the officer down before, you know, and their faces were identical to that day. Just like, we have trained this a thousand times.

And I know you said you felt guilty about it, but that's just your training kicking in, and I'm glad you didn't get emotional and all that. You did exactly what you needed to do to do that day. And even Jon, you said it was clinical. That's exactly what it was just clinical that day when it came to the Tac med stuff. So I thought that was interesting.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, that's one of the things that, my wife and I talked a lot about was she's like, how was Jordan in the pack? And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. She goes, what do you mean you don't know? I go, I don't know. He wasn't great, but that wasn't my focus, was having a conversation with you back there while we were doing this. Like, it was. It was bigger than that. But I think in that moment, looking back on it, I'm like, oh, yeah, it could have been a little bit.

Jordan Robison: Like, no, no, I wouldn't have changed it.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah.

Jordan Robison: Another thing, too that we didn't talk about that I want to bring up is that selflessness that Shipley showed at the beginning, right? Where he takes his tourniquet off and comes to me and starts using that. Well, that just didn't stop there. He got to the hospital first. Cause he was in a marked unit and the driver got him there first. And all the ER staff. Because I talked to him afterwards, the only thing they had heard. Cause there was like a lot of telephone going on was that there was one officer down and they didn't know how bad it was. And that's all they knew. They didn't know ETA's, they didn't know anything.

So when Shipley shows up, all the hospital staff comes rushing out to go to Shipley. And they're like, hey, let's go. Let's get you on the gurney. And Shipley's like, no, that's like, just wait. Like somebody else is coming. Like, get off me. And you told the initial hospital staff, like, hey, just wait. Like, my partner's right around the corner or something like that, right?

Chris Shipley: Get Jordan.

Jordan Robison: Yeah. So that's just another example of just that selflessness of just like, hey, no, I'm okay, but my partner's coming. He needs you. I'll wait for the nurses that you don't need, you know, so.

Jon Becker: Which is just a further continuation of Chris's remarkable calm under fire that you see in watching the video. He is the only person I've ever known that's been shot and was telling the other people to calm down while they were working on him and concerned about his rifle.

Jordan Robison: He did a hair flick, too.

Jon Becker: Yeah, yeah, there's a little brief hair fix, and, yeah, I think that. Okay, so one of the things I would love to talk about with you guys is kind of lessons learned from this, you know, whether it's individual or team or, you know, tac med. Spencer, why don't we start with the tactical medical program? What do you think you guys did right?

Spencer Brahmbaugh: I think some of the stuff that we did good that made us successful in that day was definitely the ownership that the guys on the team took to when it came to the medical part of it. Everyone was willing to carry their equipment and keep it on them, make sure it was, you know, up to date and in good condition. And they were pretty religious about that.

And every time we had a training at least once a month, or every training day would be twice a month, we would throw something in there and they would say, hey, we want to do an officer down in this scenario or in. This wasn't something that took away from, you know, the main topics we were training on. It was just a – Here's a reminder, like, be ready for this. And we would randomly put those in there, and the guys would perform. It was never one of those things where they're like, oh, we're doing this again.

I think the guys on this team understand how violent that city is and that we have that potential when we're going out there. And the ownership they took in, it really made a difference and understanding their role and every role there is to be filled in that incident. And then so guys were just, like I said earlier, just looking for work, you know, wherever it was, you know, whatever needed to be done, they were making it happen.

And then just the training that we would put in as a team, specifically on the medical training days, which was a, you know, a ten hour day of all medical stuff, you know, the sergeants or the team leaders, letting us have that training. And then my partner, who was, you know, medic, he'd left the team before this, but he was the first medic into the inland regional center.

So Ryan Starling was the guy that really started this team down the right path. And then we got together about five years ago on the team and started working, you know, just to make it even better and make it a more solid program for these guys and for us and so I think that's kind of started a long time prior to this day.

Jon Becker: So, yeah, I think that success, you know, for lack of a better term, on game day is not success on game day. It's success in every training prior to game day.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, it was everything that every guy on that team had done, you know, the ones that were currently there and the ones that left, like, all those guys putting in this effort, you know, specifically on the medical stuff, made a big difference in the outcome for Jordan.

Chris Shipley: But I'm sorry to rim you guys. I know he won't talk good about him or highly of himself or something like that. So that's where I'm going to chime in a little bit, too, is you define like the game day, and that's a lot of the stuff that I think people forget is on your worst day, that's the best you're going to do.

A lot of you have, like, a lot of these different types of people that I look up to, too, and they discuss kind of these, these hard skills that you have set. You're already competent within your capabilities that you can resort to him because that on a cold day, on a cold start, that's the best you're going to do. And for him, that's what kind of goes back to is, I don't know if it's nature nurture. I think it has a lot to do with just the nature of who he is individually. But over the last, I don't want to say his age too loud.

Jon Becker: Century?

Spencer Brahmbaugh: I'm only 38.

Chris Shipley: He said it. But over like that, I mean, nature. So over the last almost four decades, he's gonna be 40 years. Last four decades is he's be able to refine those skill sets that he has. And again, I believe it's a lot with the nature of who he is, who he was born as. I mean, he had the foundation, but now he has a skill set that he's just, he's enhanced. And it becomes like a lot of the times we discuss, like, these, these subconscious behaviors that he's just so competent in little things where he doesn't have to, he doesn't have to think about it.

Just like when you ask somebody just to drive from point A to point B is they'll get to that place and like, oh, shoot, I don't even remember driving there, but they're doing all this. They're, they're driving. They're driving rightfully. They're using their signals. They're stopping at the right points. They just don't recognize it because it's become so Nate in their behavior that they've done it repeatedly over and over and over again. That becomes subconscious to them. They don't have to resort to, and that's where, like, within that medical capabilities and stuff that I would have to try to, try to effectively think that he'd just so naturally do because he's, he's honed those skills, those skill sets.

Jon Becker: Yeah. I mean, it goes back to fundamentals. Right? It's, you know, one of my favorite sayings is you won't rise to the occasion. You'll fall to the level of your training.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yes.

Jon Becker: And, you know, so much of training is fundamental. And it's, I think it is very easy for teams to get sucked into the exotic training paradigm where it's like, let's go, do, you know, let's go, you know, shoot out of helicopters, hanging from ropes or whatever, when really the basic fundamentals is where most, you know, all the debriefs I've ever attended, all the debriefs I've done, most of the time when a team falls apart at a fundamental level.

Chris Shipley: Oh, absolutely. And then you'll, so it's like, you ask him, you'll sit there and be like, hey, like, to me, he's a master of his craft, but he's still, he's still a student. And that's where you recognize is he's just constantly learning. He's constantly getting better, and he's adapting. He's trying to make, like rich. Devonny always discusses, like, if you can make yourself 1% better in every single aspect, then you're just, you're going to significantly compound your success rate.

And then you have him just like he, he won't discuss like he, he went through after we were just, we're talking about the whole incident self is he's, he started revising his entire, well, he keeps it organized in itself, just naturally, but he was going through revising his, his vehicle over and over and over again just for the ever changing components of what we're confronted with, anticipating the worst case scenario.

And again, that's a higher level of thinking, but that's based upon all his four decades of experience. About four decades of experience. But again, yeah, he's just, he's constantly looking to try to better something in every single aspect of his capacity, I guess.

Jon Becker: Well, and I think that it, you know, you mentioned something interesting there, which is that he's training for worst case scenario. Right? I think another pitfall is, is you go into training, every time you hit a resilient, you know, you hit a problem, something fails, stop. And one of the teams that I interviewed that survived a pretty hellacious shooting, not quite this bad, but pretty hellacious shooting. They said that part of their culture was that they train through, like, if they're playing sims, they train through injury. You don't get shot and stop. You get shot and keep shooting.

And he said, you know, initially, that was kind of a controversial thing, but when one of our guys got shot in an operation, he didn't even hesitate, he kept pushing. And I think that if you. If you train for best case scenario, when worst case scenario shows up, you're not prepared.

Chris Shipley: No.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah. And that's one of the ways that we train this team trained was you just push through it. And one of the things we were able to get them to buy off on is, all right, you get to push through it, but when this shooting is done, we need to figure out who shot and go from there. So every time that engagement happened, we were having guys putting tourniquets on, evacuing them out of the house, and working away to get me from one room to that room or the other medics or however it was.

But I think ultimately, the thing that made the medical side super successful from my end was my goal was to shed my tasks. Like, I have all these tasks that I need to do to make sure that this guy isn't bleeding anymore. And if I can give those two officers and this stuff we were doing through training, if I can say, hey, you guys are doing tourniquets, you guys are cutting clothes off. You guys are looking for chest wounds and putting chest seals on. Like, those are all things that I would like to have done before I get there.

So even though I would make entry with this team, we would tell them, the first 60 seconds is on you guys. So after that, threats down and the shooting is over, like, it's on you guys to figure it out for a minute until I get from wherever I'm at to that room with you. And so taking those tasks off of my plate just makes it so there's. There's less stuff I have to worry about. And we can focus more on the advanced life support side of it instead of the tourniquets and just the chest seals, so.

And one more thing from the fire department side that I think, in a roundabout way, made a big difference was the fire department funds this program for the San Bernardino Police Department. And it's not a cheap program to have, but ultimately this has gone through a lot of different guys from the admin side on the fire department. And it just takes one guy to say no. We've been able to pitch it and each guy on our side has just said yes.

You know, they see the need and they're willing to stick through it and, and to eat the cost. And that day, you know, it showed up. Like, this is the reason, Jordan's the reason that we have a program like this. So we get guys like that home, you know, and Chris too. I heard he got shot.

Jordan Robison: That's the rumor.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: He denies it.

Jon Becker: I think you raise a really valid point, which is that ultimately it's a multi agency thing. Right? And the way that you have done this with a cooperation between the fire department and police department, not only brings better advanced life support, but also embeds firefighter paramedic who is tactically trained with the team in a way that police department probably wouldn't fund.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah. And we're finding that it's more and more acceptable for police departments to buy into it because of the liability side of things. You know, they're willing to say, yeah, this takes some liability away from when we have a use of force to have a paramedic there. But ultimately it's, it's a hard stretch to say we're going to take a guy as a fireman and put them on a SWAT team for a lot of places.

But I, from seeing both sides of it, I think it's easier for a guy to recognize when he's in trouble, when you need to use force than it is for a guy to be able to look at someone and say, this person's a critical patient. Like, this person is going to die if I don't intervene or if we don't get something done or moving on this patient, that takes some time for paramedics to recognize that stuff throughout their career. I think it's, sometimes it's much more clear cut to recognize when you're in imminent danger as a police officer.

So from being a fireman for, you know, paramedic for 15 years and then coming over to the police department side, it seems, I don't want to say easier, it's definitely not easier, but it's less of a stretch to train a guy to go to the police academy and go to SWAT school than it is to send a guy to paramedic school and be like, these are all things you need to look out for and how all your patients present, because we're not just dealing with trauma.

We're checking out all these people that we serve warrants on their houses and they're having chest pain after they're having shortness of breath. We have an older guy on the team that might be having a medical problem or an allergic reaction. So it's really the spectrum of what we're doing is much more than just trauma.

Jon Becker: Well, one of the things that we talked about offline that I think that seems appropriate here is that frugality can be a fault. It becomes very easy for administrations to look at situations and say, oh, bearcats are really expensive, drones are really expensive, paramedics are really expensive, and start to save, you know, save pennies, you know, is it penny smart, dollar dumb? I think it becomes very easy for administrations to cut complicated programs and cut technology and everything else.

And, you know, I don't know what the paramedic program cost the fire department and the police department combined for all the years that you've done it. I'm pretty sure Jordan thinks it was worth the money.

Jordan Robison: Yeah, I do.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah, I think we all think it's worth the money. It's just what guys need to realize is that we can, we can spend all the money on this stuff, but if we're not willing to give guys the equipment they need or the training they need, and we're spending money on the wrong things, then we're not doing justice to the guys that are actually serving the warrants or going through the door.

The team spending money or needing a second bear cat or wanting better equipment isn't a bad thing. It means your guys are looking forward into the future and they're seeing how these trends are going and really what they want to do with how they operate and how they work. And we should spend more money to make sure these guys come home safe. I don't know how you put a number on that. It's hard to quantify.

Chris Shipley: The thing you also do forget is we have an obligation to the public too, as well. I'm more on the training side of having the tools and the new top end types of instruments, stuff like that. The training is what's important. A lot of those hard skills is we have obligation to the public, too, because how prevalent a lot of these big, say, mass casualty incidents are occurring now. You have these copycat cultures, and then even worse, you have these radicalized terrorist organizations that are just infiltrated are our, we'll say our country, too.

And a lot of people know is like San Bernardino is a hub for terrorist organizations on the west coast. San Bernardino County, Riverside county, ground zero. Most people don't understand that. We've had, I mean, we've had the IRC, which was a big event in the last seven years now and then a couple school shootings.

And that's just becoming more and more prevalent. And because you have skill sets that you, you've, you've trained and you've looked forward to the most updated type of training and to learn from your past experiences and other people's past experiences, because you have, like, I mean, Columbine was a big one where it just, I mean, that revised the whole priority of life scale and then you have voldy that just completely violated and look at the casualties that were inflicted.

And I mean, those kids, like, they have done nothing in this world to deserve that. And we also have that within our city too, is we have everything from higher level of education to kindergarten to these big commercial buildings and stuff like that. It's just bound to happen again. But by having these skill sets, we can't mitigate the inheritance that are just in the nature of our industry and our profession.

But that'll just, that'll safe what that allow us is to be unequivocally more successful. We're during one of these incidents that makes the public more safe. If by having Spencer teach us, you can compound that knowledge to his level and it's never going to be his level, but just to compound the knowledge that he has, we can transfer that.

So it's like you have another big incidence that occurs is if I could start rendering Aidan faster, I can recognize this stuff faster and I can save more lives faster. I can delay that onset enough just so that he can get there, people in his profession can get there. How many more lives can be saved?

Jon Becker: I think it's easy, though. You know, complacency is a threat, right? Complacency for many police departments is the threat because these things don't happen very often. Right? You know, you've executed hundreds or even thousands of warrants and none of them gone this way. So you start to confuse. Good luck with good tactics. Jordan, from your perspective, like, I know we've talked about the complacency played a role here. Talk to me a little bit about that.

Jordan Robison: Sure. Well, I think before this incident, we had seen this trend where admin was trying to get us to do more with less understaffed, overworked is how I describe our agency and what we had to deal with. And there's some advantages to that, to where you get creative. You learn a lot of solutions that a lot of other agencies and cops don't have to think about.

The problem and the downfall with that is it kind of puts you in this mindset to where, because you get away with it a few times, then you get away with it a lot, and then you get away with that for a few years, that when you come across something like this, and we've all talked about it, we knew in the pit of our stomach that this guy wasn't like other crooks that we're dealing with. This guy's different.

However, we still have that. Oh, well, I don't want to activate the whole team yet. You know, that's a lot of overtime. Maybe we should do. Let's do the same thing we've been doing, where we're going to do a little more with a little less, even though we know that this guy is different. We've all said it, we talked about it with each other. I think that mindset kind of bled into this incident as well. And I think you have to look at things from an individual. Like, you have to take each incident on its individual merits and individually.

I know Chris talked about a lot. This incident threw up red flag after red flag after red flag, to the point where the whole team, looking back in hindsight's easy to judge. It's easy to judge things on hindsight, but looking back with all these red flags, the whole team should have been activated and said, hey, you're going to sit around the station for 24 hours just to have you on standby.

I think I know personally, my mindset was, hey, I don't care how fast he is, I don't care what he's done. I'm faster, I've trained more, I'm better. And you should have that mindset when you go into it. But you can't neglect the reality of the tactics that you have on the ground, because, as we just saw, it doesn't matter how fast or big or strong you are, a bullet's faster and a bullet's stronger.

So I think that really bled into some of the tactical decisions that were made that day. Do more with less. And that was one of the days we were, we were caught and we were punished for it.

Jon Becker: So do you think that, like, the fact that you had been successful with small team tactics with, you know, taking a van versus taking a bearcat or something else that those things had created almost like a danger inoculation for you guys. Like, it just, even though it seemed dangerous, like we've always done it this way. It worked.

Jordan Robison: Yeah. And I think that's also part and parcel with the city that we work in. We deal with high level criminals on such a regular basis that, you know, you kind of become numb to it. We see just horrific shootings and horrific incidents of violence on a regular basis that you do become desensitized to it. And it's very easy to just say, yeah, no, this guy was pretty violent yesterday with the deputy. We know what's going to happen, but, you know, we've always done this. It's going to work.

Instead of taking a second saying, hey, this guy has thrown up more red flags than I've seen our other crooks regularly do and take that on its individual merits, it's very easy to just fall into, well, this is, this is what we're going to do because this is how we always do it. Instead of taking a moment to critically think, is this the best tactic for this guy on this day? And I definitely think looking back, that's where I fell short. And I know I've talked to a lot of guys and they feel like that's where they fell short that day, too.

Jon Becker: So, Jordan, I think you guys made a lot of good decisions prior to this. Right. In training, we've talked already about attention to detail, attention to things. Talk about personal preparation for me a little bit because ultimately I think your fitness and obviously the teams skills play into this. But, you know, we've talked offline about the need to be attentive to the details of your personal job. Give me kind of your thoughts on that.

Jordan Robison: Sure. I know Chris touched, touched on it earlier, too. We have a duty to the public. We have a duty to each other. Like I have a duty to Chris when I'm on the team. I have a duty to Spence when we're on the team, to be the very best we can be out there. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's true. You have a responsibility to be the best version of yourself.

And especially when you're on a tight knit team doing high risk operations like a SWAT team, you have to be in the best physical shape possible. If Spence goes down and I have to get him over a fence, if I'm too weak to get a limp body over a fence, I'm no good and I shouldn't be on that team. So that was something I took really, really serious.

Physical fitness was huge for me, especially for the recovery, which we. We talked about later, but for the day in day aspects of the team, physical fitness is everything. So I ran multiple miles every day. I lifted six times a week. I was in probably the best shape I had ever been in in my life at that point.

But I feel like that's how you have to be on a SWAT team. That's part of your preparation. That's work you do before you get to the station. That's work you put in every day just to be a part of that team. Things that you need to take care of when you get there, especially for newer guys listening, and I wish I would have learned this earlier, is get your gear scored away. You should know everything that's on your. On your gear. You should know how your vest is set up. You should know the specs on every single thing on your vest, to your gun, to how you load your mags. Every single detail of every single thing that you set up will make a difference. I know Spence preached it early on, and he was really heavy on having a tourniquet that's located in the triangle.

So, for example, let's say your right arm gets hit. You need to be able to access your tourniquet with your left arm. Your left arm gets hit. Same thing with your right arm. Your leg gets hit. You need to have a tourniquet for your leg. Multiple limbs get hit, get hit like it did with me. You need to have multiple tourniquets. I carried a tourniquet high, a tourniquet low, and I think I had a tourniquet, my medden medbag. And I think I carried one more. I carried one more tourniquet on my belt. And it came into play that day. I had three tourniquets applied on me, and then we needed a fourth for Officer Shipley.

So if there's any patrol. Patrol, guys or girls listening. And you're not carrying tourniquet out on patrol, you're insane. Like. And you should be carrying multiple. And I know there's realities. You patrol about much. You can fit, but you. You need to have your gear prepped for this scenario, not for. Hey, if things go right, you need to have your gear prepped for when things go wrong.

Jon Becker: Yeah. One of the things that we see in a lot of teams that I've dealt with over the years is they strip gear off because it's heavy and it's inconvenient, it gets in the way. And, you know, you kind of watch them go through gear phases where they are totally prepared, and then they're like, I'm not going to carry my tourniquet this time. And you see guys starting to strip more and more gear off to get back down to the lightest thing they can. And again, I think it goes back to that training for the worst case scenario, not for the best case.

Jordan Robison: Yeah, and I think, too, I've not going to name names, but I've been at trainings where I pick up somebody's vest and it flies off the ground. And I'm like, where the h*** are your plates? And they're like, oh, no, they're in a different vest or my back hurt today. I don't want to train with my plates in. That's insane. That's absolutely mind blowingly insane.

Train how you're going to be out there in the field, because if you can't stand on a ten hour, ten hour training with your, with your plates in, because it's too heavy, then you're not going to be able to stand out there on a 15 hours call out with your plates in. You're going to be fatigued and you could forget to put them back in.

And as we saw from this incident, my plate and my vest directly is the reason I'm here. You know, all tactics and everything aside, plate stopped around direct center to probably my aorta. And then the Cumberbun stopped an additional round going into my thoracic cavity. So I think your gear is just.

Chris Shipley: Everything but the piggyback off that too, is. I don't think people really delve into the question, like the why. Like, he discussed about picking people up being the physical capability of, like, you'll have people say like, oh, yeah, I'll just pick up and I'll just dump me. Drag carry them.

Well, how's that truly gonna look when you have a completely incapacitated person where you have, it's completely immobile, he's. Now you do some sort of sweat, blood, all these different type of factors too. Like, how's that truly gonna look? And they don't think about stuff like that. They're like, oh, I'm tough. I'm a big guy. I'll just pick him up and carry him.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Something a little different about the team and kind of the culture we had was everyone is always competing. Like, we were going to SWAT competitions, to shooting competitions. If Chris Drew, and it was 1.1, someone was trying to beat him. Like, the whole team was out there trying to beat his draw time. We would have duels with sims on our lunch breaks. Like, it was that kind of competition that I think just forced everyone to get better across the team. And that was a great, like, culture for us to have.

Jon Becker: Well, I mean, you raise a point, which is this culture. Right? Like, culture is what underlies the behavior of an organization. And having the right culture is where excellence comes from. It's not an individual act, it's a cultural act. It's not acceptable to fall below the line. And so as a result, everybody's striving and like you said, just trying to get better, trying to get faster. And I think in the end, with this incident, Jordan's alive because of that.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Robison: No, I agree. It's that same culture. I remember we did an aardvark competition a while ago and.

Chris Shipley: Sorry, what kind of competition?

Jordan Robison: It was AARDVARK sponsored art. And I was, I was new on the team and at this time I hadn't been shooting as much as I could have been working a ton of overtime on patrol, doing FTO stuff, kind of not focusing on the team. I'm brand new and this is. And I'll just kind of throw myself under the bus here. And I went to this team and Spencer was on a team with a couple people, and I was on a different team with a couple people. And Spencer's team finished first and our team, we finished like 10th or 11th or something like that.

And I performed to everybody else's standards in the competition, mid table, you know, average. But to our team, I was by far the slowest and the worst when it came to shooting on our team. And that feeling of just shame. And that's when it first kind of hit me of, hey, this isn't acceptable. Like, hey, you need to go to the range, you need to step your game up and you need, you need to, you need to step up because you've just embarrassed yourself in front of your entire team.

And that was kind of that first. And I was brand new on the team, I think, a few months, but that was that first intro, that first taste of, hey, this is a different culture now. Like, you're going from patrol to a close knit team who competes with each other to be the best. And that's when that mindset started to take over.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Preston.

Jon Becker: So, Jordan, last topic, you said earlier that there are things that you would have changed, obviously, retrospectively, like anything else. Right? It's easy Monday morning to look back at an event and go, oh, well, that didn't go well. And I think that a big point of the debrief is to talk about those things. Where do you think this went wrong? Like, what? What do you pin down as your primary? If I had to do it again, I would do it differently.

Jordan Robison: Well, it's – So with this, and I'm sure people on the outside looking in can identify, like, 100 things that probably went wrong. I think one of the big ones, when I look back, one of the big flaws in the plan, because I think that plan could have worked. But I think the problem. One of the main problems was we gave him too easy of an equation to solve. We gave him one van. Four guys versus you. That was too easy of a problem for him. And he solved it pretty well. He hit two out of four.

When you look back, there was genuine confusion when it came to turn on the street, because the marked units weren't sure if they should turn on, because we knew if this guy saw a marked unit, it was game on. We knew if he saw a marked unit, he was going to get out of his car, shoot or run. So marked was off the table, so they weren't sure if they should turn in with us. UC units also weren't sure if they were turning in with us. There was genuine confusion.

So when we went to turn onto the street, we went in with one van versus him. And ultimately, I think that just gave him, like I said, too easy of an equation. And, yes, we won because of everything else we've talked about, but when we got lucky and two, he was able to solve it. So.

Jon Becker: So to do over again, multiple vehicles, probably?

Jordan Robison: Yeah, give him that. I think Spence talked about it, too. Make him make a choice. You know, by the time he sees 1, 2, 3, 4 cars popping up, officers popping out, he has to make that decision. And that decision takes time. And by that .1 of us will have a gun. One. And it's all looking back, it's all hindsight. Anything could have happened had we done that, too. Somebody could have been shot in the face and we could have been going to a funeral instead. But I think, looking back, we should have given him a more difficult problem that he had, they. That he had to confront.

Jon Becker: That makes sense. Would you? I mean, obviously, hindsight being 2020, should you have taken armor?

Jordan Robison: Yes. It's hard to, because one of the considerations, and it's not an easy choice. It's not because he sees armor that car has not been rendered immobile. We don't know who the driver is. We haven't identified him. We don't know his criminal history. We don't know if he's armed. We don't know if he's going to run.

So one of the main concerns if we pulled onto that street with a piece of armor is he recognizes that and now we're involved in a vehicle pursuit with a guy we know is going to engage officers. And that was one of the things we wanted to avoid. So there's a million different ways you could do it. Just ultimately, I think we should have done a little more. But armor is a good option. I just don't know if it's the right one. Ultimately, I don't know.

Jon Becker: Yeah, I think it's, it's obviously, it's challenging, right, because it's, you know, you can do 100 vehicle takedowns and 99 of them go fine, and this happens. And if this never happens, then you don't know whether it was good luck or good tactics.

Jordan Robison: Exactly.

Jon Becker: You know, I mean, when, when you've had a bad event, you can look back and go, well, you know, that didn't work. What else could we do? Is there anything else that you think that a team that's listening, an individual operator that's listening, you would want them to know or want them to at least think about?

Jordan Robison: There's so many lessons. One of the main ones, I would say, is that separate your leadership in terms of roles and responsibilities. I think we had too many people trying to do too many things, and I think some of that was lost in the tactics, tactical decisions that were made that day. I think that if you have one leader who's dedicated to you are the takedown. You are the takedown team leader. This is your element. That's all I want you to focus on. This is you. I think it kind of simplifies things. Instead of one guy trying to make too many decisions, I think that is one of the areas where we ran into problems.

So I would say for any, especially team leaders listening, try and simplify your problems. Put guys in charge of their individual elements and then kind of trust them to do that. Cause I think we had just had too few people trying to make too many decisions, and I don't think it worked.

Jon Becker: I recently interviewed Kevin Cyr, who's the team leader for the RCMP ERT in British Columbia. And one of the things that Kevin said is, and it's kind of a controversial statement for some people, is the chief shouldn't be the one making the decisions. A person making the decision should be the person that has the best situational awareness and knows the most about the situation.

Jordan Robison: Yeah.

Jon Becker: And it stuck with me because it is easy to push responsibility up too far in an organization and as a result, kind of cripple the tactical decision making. And it sounds like that's kind of one of your concerns here, is it? It got, there were too many chiefs and not enough Indians or too many chefs and not enough cooks or whatever.

Jordan Robison: Yeah. I think it's also easy to conflate time on with experience. So there's a lot of people who had a lot of time on who were making decisions versus a lot of people who had a lot of experience in this. And there were a lot of people who offered alternate points of view. And I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus, genuinely, I'm not. It's just, I think when you're a team leader making decisions, it's up to you to put the best person in the role, not because of. Not because of the rank or because of any other factors. It should be the best person who has the most experience with that specific job that you're asking him to do. I feel like that is something we could have improved on, I think.

Chris Shipley: Yeah. Just, again, going back to just questioning, questioning the why and then questioning what a real life, what a real life situation is truly going to look like, what that, to its underlying core, what that is really in a real world situation, what that's going to look like. And we got to live it. But we, this is this type of scenario that we always replay and we reiterate over and over again, like you say, you do this stuff, but they experience it. It's completely different.

And once you add all those different external factors and everything else that's going on, I mean, it just, it muddies the water extremely fast. And that's what I just hope people get is like to really, really question the why. Everything that someone tells you is you question, you try to find a reasoning to disprove or discredit what they're saying, but that just allows you to understand it more thoroughly so that you can apply it in every single type of situation. Because if you can understand how it works, then you can apply it. And I think that's just the one thing, that one message that I hope that I would like other people to get to hopefully take from this.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: I think for me, going to a new team now, it's changed how I look at things like how I look at these problems, like, my slideshow is a little bit different when we're doing this and making sure that on my end, we're doing a good job of getting our guys covered medically and being prepared, and we have more medics and physicians positions on this team. And you first get on the team and you're just happy to be there, right? Especially as a fireman, you're just thrilled. Like, this is so cool.

But, it takes an incident like this to realize, yeah, it's for keeps. Like, we're playing this for real, and sims are great and training's great, and everyone goes home. But if guys aren't asking that question of, hey, why are we doing this? Why is it this tactic? And if those leaders are given the answer, because we've always done it and we've always been successful, like, that should be a red flag. Like, have you always been successful because you're really good or because that just happened that one time we did it, it worked out.

So, I don't know. It has definitely changed my outlook on, on the team and how I view some of these incidents that we're showing up to. You just, I'm a little more vigilant when I'm looking at them. Another thing for us, something I think we did while Jordan was in the hospital that was really beneficial to our, the group of guys that were there was for the next three or four days, we just all got together and we just hung out, and it was always at someone's house and someone else's house, and all the wives got together, like, they were devastated as well, you know, and we must have talked through it, what, a hundred different times?

Chris Shipley: Yeah.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Yeah. And it was rough. There were some days where it was just like, you had the ugliness of it, the anger. Every, every emotion you could think of, everyone went through. And I think those four or five days that we did that really helped most everyone that was involved in this kind of move forward and then start focusing on getting Jordan home and making sure that hes going to be good after that. But it took a toll. Chris and Jordan, our family's all vacation together, hung out together. They were there at my house seeing my oldest off to the navy.

And, yeah, this was definitely something different that no one in my family, you know, my kid was in boot camp and called home and he's like, hey, someone said this happened, like, is everyone okay? Or he was just out of boot camp and, like, it was a big deal. It kind of affected everyone we know, and so just being together and working it out after the fact helped.

So, yeah. Make sure if this happens to your guys and your organization, that you really do your best as an administrator or as a supervisor to look after everyone. Because one of the guys who's driving my car was devastated. Like, he was absolutely a wreck after this because he had to listen to everything I wasn't paying attention to in the back.

Chris Shipley: Sorry.

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Right. But realistically, I've had 16 years of kind of ignoring this stuff. Not to be rude, but there's just other stuff going on. That was his first time, and it was his buddy. So we need to take that into account, make sure our guys are. Yeah. Everyone on that team, even guys that were off, were mentally okay after the fact.

Jon Becker: I think that's a fantastic place for us to stop. Guys, thank you so much for doing this! I appreciate you!

Chris Shipley: Thank you, Jon!

Jordan Robison: Thank you, Jon!

Spencer Brahmbaugh: Thank you for having us!