Episode 25 – Lessons Learned From 5 Decades of Police Leadership

Jon Becker: This is the second part of a series of discussions with Mike Albanese, a true legend who is one of only three people who have served at all ranks in LAPD D-Platoon, Chief Mike Albanese. Mike has spent 52 years in law enforcement with 37 of those spent at LAPD, 26 of which were spent at SWAT and crisis negotiation.

Mike is one of only a handful of people to have ever served in the ten David, or SWAT commander role at LAPD. And since retiring, Mike has served as a captain, deputy chief, and is currently the chief of police for the Burbank, California Police Department.

In this episode, we discuss Mike's second career at Burbank PD, his views on leadership, and discuss the lessons learned from a lifetime of service.

My name is Jon Becker. For the past four decades, I've dedicated my life to protecting tactical operators. During this time, I've worked with many of the world's top law enforcement and military units. As a result, I've had the privilege of working with the amazing leaders who take teams into the world's most dangerous situations.

The goal of this podcast is to share their stories in hopes of making us all better leaders, better thinkers, and better people.

Welcome to The Debrief!

Mike, thanks so much for coming back and sitting down with me!

Mike Albanese: My pleasure!

Jon Becker: I'd like to pick up from the point that you retire from LAPD, looking at the arc of your career now you retire out of D-Platoon.

Mike Albanese: I do.

Jon Becker: So you retire after. Was it 13 years? How long were you there as ten David?

Mike Albanese: No, it was just there 9 years. So it was like 27, 28 years in D team officer, sergeant and ten David officer.

Jon Becker: So there have only been a handful of people, if I remember correctly, that have been there at all of the ranks. I think it's. Is it you and Lee McMillian and Jeff Rogers? And Jeff Rogers are the only three that have been there?

Mike Albanese: Yeah.

Jon Becker: So how long are you retired before somebody says, hey, how would you like to work for Burbank PDD?

Mike Albanese: So what, about 13 months? So just from a personal position at that time in my life, is that the day I retired, I just, I didn't look at my watch anymore. I drove slower. I was at peace with myself because I told myself, they don't owe me anymore. They are not going to phone me anymore. They're not going to phone me at 1, 2, 3, 4 in the morning. They're not going to phone me on Christmas day when we're sitting down to have dinner. They don't owe me anymore. So I am done with law enforcement.

Jon Becker: Yeah, but from a context, standpoint, you spent more than two decades.

Mike Albanese: Yes.

Jon Becker: On call. And is Tim David always on call?

Mike Albanese: In fact, if the phone didn't ring at night, because it wasn't necessarily that you're going to roll out of. It could be some consultation. It could be. This is what we got going. What do you think? At 02:00 in the morning, they're energized. I'm half asleep.

So then I get a call from Chief Scott Lachoss, who was my bureau chief when I worked at LAPD, and said, hey, we're doing some organizational restructuring. He was just appointed to the Burbank Police Department's chief of police, and this is in 2010. Would you consider being part of the command staff? It'll be for six months.

Jon Becker: Famous last words.

Mike Albanese: Right. So cross staff with my wife. Six months, not a problem. So six months. And I'm in my 14th year. So it's been a great journey. It's been challenging personally and professionally. It has been very stimulating. It has introduced me to different aspects of community, law enforcement and government. Community government.

And so what I share with people now, kind of tongue in cheek, is that I have become what I have had disdain for 40 years. I am now a bureaucrat.

Jon Becker: So from racehorse to plow horse.

Mike Albanese: And that's it. But I've enjoyed the journey and we'll see how it ends.

Jon Becker: So when do you become chief of Burbank PD?

Mike Albanese: So that was in 21st July 21, 22. So you're a. I've been chief for two and a half years. Two years.

Jon Becker: Two years?

Mike Albanese: Two years.

Jon Becker: So you're moving from one of the….

Mike Albanese: Here's the deal. The dates don't matter anymore. They really don't. When you're in my former life, they mattered. I can give you the dates that came on, the dates that I promoted, the dates that I went here and there. Here. It didn't matter. I was the DC, the deputy chief for six years and then a short period of time, interim chief, and I've been the chief for, you know, two plus years.

Jon Becker: So you went from one of the largest agencies in the United States to a smaller agency?

Mike Albanese: We would be considered a mid sized agency.

Jon Becker: How many officers do you have?

Mike Albanese: So we're authorized 160. So have another 120 plus as far as non sworn staff. So just under 300?

Jon Becker: Just under 300.

Mike Albanese: Not counting volunteers and crossing guards.

Jon Becker: How did the LAPD experience inform you to run an organization? How did the culture contrast between the two agencies there? Talk to me about that.

Mike Albanese: Okay. So I'm going to fast forward to where I'm at today. It's shared with me what not to do, what not to do, and where we weren't successful at Lep, where we can be successful here. So, first of all, it's delivering marquee police service.

So that is developing personnel to deliver service on any call for services for LAPD. It's just not mandatory. The call load for them is voluminous. Voluminous. So they work, they try very hard. Good service. But we here, I can say with absolute confidence, you can walk down the hallway, go out into the parking lot, talk to any of our officers here, and they will tell you the service that we deliver. And I bleed LAPD blue. And I very passionate about the organization, just anecdotally about me. My grandfather was on the job.

Jon Becker: Oh, really?

Mike Albanese: So he was on the job under 30 years. His brother was on the job. My godfather was killed on the job. So from 1923 to 2023, there's been someone in law enforcement in our family. My oldest daughter's in law enforcement. Her husband's in law enforcement. My middle daughter, her husband's in law enforcement. So this is a service that I've embraced for many years.

So I look at large and mid size as far as how we can be the best. So the quest here, and it can be achievable, is to be really one of the best law enforcement agencies in the region. So that's training. That's who we hire. That's the service we provide, the equipment that we have. And it involves sworn and also non sworn. And the non sworn component is an essential part of what we do to deliver professional police service.

Jon Becker: I would love to, you know, 52 years in law enforcement. Right? Like, living through many of the most provocative and transformative times. I would love to just kind of conclude our time together, talking about leadership and talking about kind of your views on a variety of subjects, if you wouldn't mind.

Mike Albanese: So I'll probably be all over the place here. The most critical part is communicating with your folks. So I'll give you the example. And this is going to be odd for some folks, is that in this organization, in LAPD, is that they didn't use the locker room. First day heroes in the locker room. I change out every day, even now in the locker room, just like the officers. That's where I started and that's where I'm going to end.

And it was a little odd and unsettling for some of the folks because you're in the locker room, but I work out at the gym here sometimes, but I'm in the locker room. I start my day, I finish in the locker room, and it gives me an opportunity for casual conversations.

So I work hard to know every officer, to know their first name, to know if they're married, if they have children, because their life outside of law enforcement is impacts how they work. Yesterday I met with the some sergeants and FTOs, and I try to personalize that as much as I can as far as I could, as far as defining expectations.

For the most part, folks will know what the – or believe. They know what the expectations are, but they need to hear it from you. And like I told them, I'm depending on you to do a really good job of developing our officers so that they are well rounded, productive police officers serving our community.

And so work, work hard on that. I typically, every day I try to do at least one lap around the building to stop at the comm center. Maybe not as frequently as I should go through records, the jail, not so much, but periodically. So one, they know that I'm in the building, that I'm paying attention, and that their service is valued. They are needed to make us successful.

So communication, being present, and also listening to your folks. And this is when I talk about smalls matter. So if there's a small. Ask a small b****, is it something that is doable? Is it reasonable? Is it for the betterment of the organization? If we can turn that around in a short period of time, that is a big, big deal.

Jon Becker: One of the things you mentioned there in passing, but I think is worth kind of digging into, is you run an almost equal size sworn and non sworn staff.

Mike Albanese: Yes.

Jon Becker: And although they both contribute differently to the organization, I know that you're a big proponent of the non sworn staff side of the house. Talk to me a little bit about that.

Mike Albanese: So you have to think about it. And I didn't pay attention to it in my former life. I really didn't. You take a lot for granted. I took the non sworn for granted. I mean, I recognized him and thanked them, but I just didn't recognize him like I do today. And the same with city government. As far as paying attention to city government, what your city council, your city manager, what are their goals? What are their objectives?

So that we can be part of that, as far as making it happen for them. And if it is going to require equipment, training, personnel, I can talk or speak intelligently to them and say, look, this is what your goal is for 2035. That's great, but this is what we're going to need, so that that goal comes to fruition. So for our non sworn folks is it all starts in the comm center, 911 calls. So 911 calls.

So if you're in trouble, you need help, you have a question, you have a medical emergency, you phone 911. And if you have a locked on 911 center, comm center, then the foundation is at a good place, and then you build from there. And who manages the evidence?

So evidence is a big deal as far as that chain of custody, how it comes in, how it's memorialized, that's non sworn for records, it's important for prosecutorial considerations, it's important for the detectives, it's important for all of us. And if there's a question from the community of how many of these crimes or this and that, it's typically going to go to an analyst who's going to go to records to get that information.

So everybody has to work together so that we can, and I've overstated it many times, deliver professional police services, and then you have a jail, we have a jail. So there's custodial issues. Are we in compliance with the feds, in compliance with the state so that there's no issues there? And simply put, we're open 24/7. We never close the building doesn't get a break. The vehicles, for the most part, don't get a break. We're here 24/7 so I'll tell you a proud moment.

So the proud moment was during COVID. So COVID, in within 48 hours, this department moved the organization so that we can address all of the issues associated with COVID and the restrictions and their compliances and all of that, so that we can provide police services. Now we're going into people's homes that may be ill or don't want us inside their homes. We are still stopping people in the street.

We have a jail, we're transporting them. All those things became significant as far as how we manage it. A simple thing. Like every day we had a service come in and detail, decon our cars, because we had officers going in the cars, officers coming from home. Officers are going back to their home so that we don't, in fact, them. We're transporting people. We're transporting people to jail, we're going to hospital, all of that.

So it's not only the mask and the gloves and are we coming into your home, but all of that had to be considered, and we had to move the organization 24 hours. This is what we didn't have. We had no pushback. Everyone showed up to work. There was no pushback at all.

There was other organizations that were challenged because they were concerned about their own safety, medical safety, if you will, going home after working in the public where you had this pandemic. So very proud of the organization. Our officers, sworn and non sworn, recognized how important it was for them to be here.

At the height of COVID, I had 27 folks off at one time, 27 sworn, 27. So you start doing the math as far as days off and how are we going to be able to have enough officers to deploy and folks stepped up. Stepped up big time. So for in the review process. And we ended up doing a after action, port after action report on what we did, what worked, what didn't work. Very proud of the organization.

The other thing too, just prosecutorial stuff, is that now we're doing trials from our jail, we're doing prelims remotely. So everything changed and we were able to adjust to those changes and did it exceptionally well.

Jon Becker: Which I guess is a testament to organizational flexibility. Right. It is having a mindset and a leadership team that recognize that. I always jokingly say I've been self-employed since I was 17 years old. Every day I have been unqualified for the job that I had because my job was different than it was the day before. But I think that the mindset of organizational flexibility and this look at what do we do when presented with challenge and how do we react to it.

Mike Albanese: Okay, so look at where I came from and some of the other folks came from, is that you come from that SWAT model where features change in 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. So in this circumstance with COVID the pandemic is it was constantly changing. And our ability to move and to adjust was pretty much seamless. We had a really good command staff, my police administrator at the time. We would meet an hour a day to see what was needed so that we could make stuff happen. And we did it.

But what was important is that we didn't have pushback from our folks. Did not have pushback, is that they understood the mission. And this is where communication comes in. Why we're doing what we're doing, understand, is that we're going to close the lobby, but we have to make it available for folks. So how does that work? We are, our 911 center is that if it's an emergency, we're going to respond, but we're going to ask more questions.

As far, is this something that we can do? Telephonically or do you want an officer at the scene when the officers get there, is there anything that they should know about inside the house? And are they okay going inside the house? Just balls like that. And it worked.

Jon Becker: Yeah. No, it's interesting because it's very much a – Almost like we talk a lot about in our organization, about Kaizen and this idea of constant improvement and small changes and using those things. And it's interesting now, looking back on your career, that has been a theme since the beginning.

And it makes me think one of the challenges that organizations are having right now, apart from staffing, which is a huge problem for organizations, but we'll come back to that, is that frequently the most talented people in the organization are in the SWAT team and SWAT teams, especially in full time agent, you know, full time teams in agencies have kind of been places that guys go and they retire from.

And it's true of most of the guys I know in the D-team, they get there and then they don't leave. And it's great for the team. It's a challenge for the organization. I'm wondering now, retrospectively what your thoughts on that are.

Mike Albanese: So, again, you're very astute. So you have all this talent, all this leadership, all this knowledge, and it's sequestered into one model. Try to encourage folks to promote all the time. If all those guys spent five to seven years and promoted out, probably would have a better organization. But they love the mission, they love the camaraderie, they love their teammates, and they just don't want to leave. I was a police officer for 17 years before I promoted. I did not want to leave.

So I understand that dynamic, but for the organizational good is that we invested all this time money, and you have all this institutional knowledge, or all this knowledge is that share it with other folks and there'll be good sergeants, lieutenants and staff officers moving up. So you're spot on. This is kind of silly, but you can cut it out. I don't care is that I'm a woodworker. I have a hobby. And I would also encourage folks is that not to be one dimensional, have something else in your life. Have something else in your life that you. That energizes and stimulates you.

So I have a big word, working shop. And I would also know that if I was getting ready to glue up a big project, that the worst thing that could happen is that I have a call up. So I have wood glue all over the place, and then I have to leave it, and then I'm going to script the project. So I would literally phone the metro desk and I'd go, I just. Is there anything percolating? Because if there is, I'm not going to glue up. And they would laugh and I'm sure made commentary about it, but I didn't want to screw up project.

But I also knew that when the phone rang, is that it went from the shop to the car to the call up. So, you know, this is what I would encourage folks to do, is have something hobby wise, something that is going to interest you that separates from an all consuming job.

Jon Becker: Yeah, it's balance. Right. It's finding balance. And I think that that kind of goes into, you know, a topic that I know is near and dear to your heart, which is staff wellness. Right? It's as leaders trying to ensure that those we lead are healthy, happy people.

Mike Albanese: So, the suicide rate in law enforcement is staggering right now. I have known more than one that have committed suicide, and it is just confounding. In fact, the one that's very personal to me. I actually recruited him on the job, and if you had given me a list of 100 names, he would be 100. He would be the 100th guy that I would have believed that was at risk of committing suicide.

So it speaks to – You just don't know. You don't know what's going on in their personal life, in their professional life. And once they move to that dark, dark place and we've dealt with them, any negotiator will tell you is that it's really hard to move them because it is not a rational thing. You're bringing rational words into someone who is not rational.

So we have a pretty robust wellness program here, and I think it's essential for law enforcement. The era that I grew up in is that that was foreboding. Is that if you had an issue, just deal with it. But folks are exposed to just horrendous things. And it doesn't have to be a gun battle. It can be a traffic accident. We had right up this street here, and I'm pointing is that two years ago we had a multi three fatal body parts were all over the place, and it was horrid.

Who's going to investigate that? It's going to be our officers. What non sworn folks are going to come out and photograph that scene over and over again? It's going to be our non sworn folks. So their care in the moment and post moment has got to be a priority for the organization. So the wellness of our staff, sworn and non sworn, is in a good place.

Jon Becker: Yeah, I think there is – The dialogue has started and I think is improving in this area. I recently interviewed Tom Satterlee, who is a delta operator and wrote a fantastic book called all secure that talks about how he was when he came out, and suicide and PTSD, you know, I think we cannot talk about it enough. We recently, like, within the last two weeks, lost a friend of suicide. That was same thing. Kind of unexpected, kind of the guy you didn't expect. And I don't think it's possible to overemphasize the need as. As leaders to know your people and know what. Where they are on the Maslow triangle.

Mike Albanese: And that's why communicating with your folks, in my position right now, uh, the reality is I'm probably going to be the last to know on a lot of this stuff. If someone's going through a divorce, someone's got an issue, or some type of personal crisis. But, uh, every family, no one is immune from a medical issue, uh, some other catastrophic event in their life.

So you just need to pay attention to that. And it's. And it's okay to get some help because the number of years that we have in life, we want to optimize on those years. And I want folks to separate from this organization. Healthy, healthy. I want them to look back and go, I had a good career, I was productive. And in my last season, it's going to be a healthy season.

Jon Becker: I think one of the problems that we're seeing right now with law enforcement is, you know, it is extremely difficult. You know, as somebody who's dealing with police departments all over the world, everybody's at 60, 70% staffing. Everybody is struggling. You know, teams that I've talked to, chiefs of police, are like, you know, we used to get 300 applicants, now we get 35. What are your views on what we as a society need to do to improve what is currently going on in law enforcement? Like, if Mike is the czar for the world today, what do we change?

Mike Albanese: So that's a tough one. Uh, and, uh, your illustrations. Right. Uh, so, uh, wheel back to 1971. So it started the process in 70, and there were thousands of applicants for the job at LAPD. They're down over 1000 officers. CHP is down. Long beach sheriffs are down. We're down 1212 bodies, which is significant. It's not 10%, but it's 8%, which is significant. And the candidate pool is very small. We're vying for the same candidates.

So for us, if we have two or three in the hopper, we're typically competing with Glendale, Pasadena, and maybe one of the bigger departments. So how fast we move is important. The job is complicated. It's difficult. We're asking folks to know a lot of information, to be subject matter experts in a lot of areas, from law to per se to driving to, you name it, to be a family mediator, if you will.

And on top of that, you're going to put a camera or a TV on their vest. And everything they do, every word they used, is going to be memorialized forever. And we're going to review it and we're going to look at it and we're going to be critical of that review process. The national narrative has not been helpful at all. It takes one or two events somewhere in the nation that changes law enforcement folks. Most folks support and embrace law enforcement. Loud voices that have disdain for law enforcement want to defund law enforcement.

And when you have that narrative every single day and you're just getting out of college, you're getting out of the military, you're working at Best Buy and looking for a career, you go, you know what? I think I'll pass on that. I work for Apple, Google or whatever. So you have that dynamic. You also have the dynamic of kids today. I don't know if they have the heart to serve as far as the numbers. They have the heart to serve because we have folks doing some remarkable things but are not that service oriented.

When you look at the service groups, it's going to be middle aged or older, whereas before a lot of service groups, you would have a cross section age demographic. You're not seeing that now. And it also is with families. You may. That's one of the questions that we ask during the Chiefs oral, is that do you have family support? Does your family support you going into this career?

For the most part, it's yes, but sometimes they'll say no, the family really doesn't support it. They'd rather me go into a different type of work. My family, my parents did not support me going into law enforcement because my mother's father was in law enforcement. He was a homicide detective that was on call all the time, and she never saw him. And they were not supportive. They were after I got through the whole process and then moved forward in my career. So I understand it.

When my daughter went on the job, I said, you're kidding me. And she goes, yeah, I remember we were at a dinner table and she goes, what do you think of Beverly Hills police department? I said, it's a great police department. What do you think about me going on? I said, stop it. What are you thinking? And she's had a great career. Her husband's had a great career. It's just a challenge. I work out every day and at the gym, if there's some new young folks there, I try to engage them to see if there's an interest. And my success has been zero. Absolutely zero. Most of these folks have an interest in other career paths.

Jon Becker: Yeah, I think we've done a very good job of vilifying and demonizing our police departments. And, you know, one of my favorite sayings, my friend Toby Darby from Glendale PD is known to say is play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I think we've been playing stupid games for quite a few years, and we're beginning to win stupid prizes. And it troubles me because, you know, I see teams all over the world are short staffed. Departments all over the world are short staffed.

Mike Albanese: And so, having said that, is it, again, is it, how agile can you be being short staff? It's a challenge. It's a challenge. But if you hire the right folks, have the heart to serve, that are mission driven, you still can be successful. And we've done a fine job. Very proud of our organization, very proud of our folks because they have embraced the mission and so they have the interest in serving and they. They do a good job.

Jon Becker: Let's just do two more quick topics with you before we end. First one is decision making.

Mike Albanese: Yep.

Jon Becker: So, I mean, obviously, you know, you've been in positions for most of your career and most of your adult life where you've had to make very difficult decisions consistently. What would your advice be for young leaders on decision making?

Mike Albanese: So don't be afraid of making a decision, and don't be afraid of making the wrong decision. So typically what I've seen is that folks, and we had a short conversation about this, is that they want more information. They want more information so they can make an informed decision. You're not going to get that information. And when you're in the moment, is that the information you have, just understand what you have and what your rationale is for your decision.

So we all want more information, but you're not going to get the information. So the information that you have, optimize on that, make your decision, and then if you're critiqued afterwards, which you will be, is that okay? This is the rationale to my decision in that moment, at that time, this is what I knew, this is what I didn't know. These are the resources that I had, and I was confident that that was the right choice for that moment.

Jon Becker: I think it's kind of a trap, though, you know, as a guy who's made decisions to my – Again, leading an organization, making decisions constantly, never with complete information, I think it is a very seductive trap to think, oh, I just need this piece of information, and then I'll be able to make the decision. And at some point, the acquisition of information eliminates the need to make a decision, and so it becomes kind of a crutch.

Mike Albanese: Agreed. You just can't be afraid of making decisions. You got to understand you're going to make a wrong decision.

Jon Becker: 100%.

Mike Albanese: Yeah. And you're going to want to redo, and you're not going to get the redo. You can't recall the decision. Just stand up and say, look, I made the decision. Hindsight, with all the information I have right now, I would have made a different decision. I wished I could have reversed myself, or I rather, I would have reversed myself, but I didn't in the moment. And you'll be fine. Folks will accept that.

And that's why debriefs are so important, is that when you do point counterpoint with your peers, and we're all peers in that setting, and they'll go, well, why did you make that decision? And I'll say, this is. This is why. Hindsight, not the best decision. So that's it.

Let's move forward. And it's, you know, it's a challenge for some folks, and for other folks, it's not a challenge. You don't want to make rash decisions. It's also great if you have a sounding board, and, like, on personnel decisions, it's not unilateral. I usually meet confer staff, go point counterpoint.

And so this is where I'm leaning. Tell me what I'm missing, and you'll get good feedback. You may be right on, or you may be off base. You may have missed something, but it's part of doing the work that we do, and we make decisions every day. Patrol officers make critical decisions all the time. I would just ask that. This is what I do. I'll have a conversation with myself afterwards. I always give myself a letter grade. As far as that decision, is that A, B, C decision, or was that the A decision? And there are times that I reversed myself on decisions because it's just not the right decision.

So just declare it and move forward. Folks will understand that and respect that, but just understand that there's an expectation that you will make a decision. So I had a question yesterday that, in fact, I saw the lieutenant ask a question, because it was a great question. It was about probationary employees who are not meeting the training expectations. And as far as separating them from the organization, what's your position on that?

I told him it's typically a heavy sigh associated with that. I mean, I agonize over that. So I asked myself this. Is that, where did we fail as an organization? Fail's probably a little harsh. Was it the written? Was it the hiring process? Was it the academy training? Is it our FTO program? And the centerpiece there was for the FTOs? Are we falling short?

And if we are, then it's on us. And if it's just that, it's just not the right fit for that individual and us, then we separate. And I just want to make sure that we've exhausted all those training opportunities or development opportunities for that individual before we cut their losses.

Jon Becker: But it's interesting because a recurring theme in everything you're saying here is introspection. Right? Is taking a moment to really look at yourself. You know, you mentioned debriefs in passing, but I think I heard you speak at a counterterrorism conference. I think it was. And you were talking about debriefs kind of in passing, but it struck me that it's changed. Right? You go back to the early days just of my career. Early days of your career. Debriefs were a much more introspective and brutal process, and there was a lot more willingness to say, man, we really screwed this up.

What I see now developing, and it's not just in law enforcement, it's in the corporate world. It's everywhere, is an unwillingness to say you made a mistake for fear that you're going to be canceled. And so as a result, you don't improve, you stagnate. And when you do make mistakes, you either try to cover them up or you look at the positive things. And it feels to me like we need to go back to a much more introspective debrief. What are your thoughts on that?

Mike Albanese: So, I absolutely agree. So let's just start with the basic debrief. There's no absent Sid Heal. Who? Military. I think they have a structured debrief curriculum.

Jon Becker: Yeah.

Mike Albanese: So, for us in law enforcement, there's no structure. This is how you conduct a debrief. This is how you do it. So it's typically learned or past practice. So how does that model look? So, who starts the debrief? Who closes the debrief? If we had missteps, how is that addressed in the debrief? If there is a training issue, if there's an equipment issue, how is that addressed during the debrief?

So, I think at LAPD, we had a pretty good model. So, typically, the sergeant and the team leader would lead the debrief. So they would do the storyboard of why we got there, what the circumstances were, challenges that we were facing, and then ultimately, we'd go around the room, and this is where we defined expectations.

The expectation I have is that when we went around the room, is that you would remind us or tell us what your position was. I was on two, three corner. I had gas. I didn't see or hear anything. Or I was at two, three corners. I could hear all sorts of ruckus that was communicated. I ultimately put four rounds of tear gas in and could see them moving, communicated that, and he was ultimately. He or she was ultimately taken into custody.

If you miss something, the expectation that we had is that you would call it out. Is that I missed it. So I don't know if it was my comms. I did take my earpiece out, because when I went to put on my gas mask and something happened, I didn't want to step on anybody on the air, but there was a moment where I didn't have all the information. That's what I want to hear. If you had a misstep, if you had a misstep, is just declare the misstep and go, this is an opportunity. This is an opportunity for all of us to be better moving forward. I look at missteps as opportunities. So we have a misstep. So it's an opportunity. We can generate training around that.

Again, is there an equipment issue associated with that? Is there decision making associated with that? How does that look? So, exploit the opportunity. Exploit the misstep so that you're better moving forward.

So, with specialized units, whether it's R SWAT team, others, or even investigative or even patrol, is that if you get that kind of energy in a debrief, you will be successful? If you have someone that just puts her arms, folds her arms in kind of that negative body language and doesn't say anything, and they. They have information that would be helpful. They're undermining the process, and they need to be called out.

So going around the room, we'd call going around the horn was essential because everybody who was there, even if they were at the SWAT truck, provided commentary as far as the role and their belief on how it came out. Then in D-team, I would typically close it out so I'd recap it so to make sure that we had all the critical points that were exposed so that we can address them. And then it would be, does anybody have anything? Because once you go outside, there's no secondary debrief. If you have secondary debrief, we're going to call everybody back in and redo it.

So those folks were pretty good, but it's. There is, and I think I shared with you, there is a video, and it's a very dated video of the Blue Angels and their debrief. And what I really liked about it, we showed it to our folks a couple times because, again, there's no training curriculum, eight hour post class you can go to on debriefs. But what I liked about it, they were all self-effacing. They were all professionals. They knew there were professionals and they were self effacing as far as what went well.

And where the one guy I said, I turned, I'm going right, but I was actually turning left, whatever he called out. And, and, and that was important. So debriefs are healthy, even when you're uncomfortable, but it's okay to be uncomfortable. In fact, we probably should be more uncomfortable than comfortable. And moving forward, it is better for the organization better for your team if you're in a specialized unit.

Jon Becker: Yeah. I think it's very easy to like making mistakes sucks. And making mistakes really sucks. That's the only way you improve. I remember I raced cars for a hobby. And I remember I went to the track. I spent the whole morning driving. I had not gone off track once. I had not spun the car. I was feeling like a [Crosstalk]

Mike Albanese: Yeah.

Jon Becker: I go into lunch with my coach, he sits down, he goes, how do you feel about the morning? I said, I crushed it, didn't lose the track, didn't, you know, never went off track, never spun the car. I'm doing this. And he said, that's because you're slow. If you want to be fast, you have to be on the edge.

Mike Albanese: Yeah.

Jon Becker: And the thing is, if you want to improve, you have to take opportunities. You know, I love the term missteps or opportunities. And I think it is, it is a cultural question as to how you view mistakes. And if you view mistakes as this is an opportunity for us to get better, then it's a lot easier to address them.

Mike Albanese: It is. And there's a bigger picture and I'm kind of on top, but a little off topic. So what? In my former life, I didn't have to experience this. So if we have a misstep, so let's say driving, you crash a car, someone else's problem. Now in my position right now, it's my problem because I have to go to city council. I go into closed session, and I cross examine about the driving misstep.

Jon Becker: Yeah.

Mike Albanese: So again, I hearken back to my CNT training. It's navigating that whole process is that you're going to have human failure, and they are humans. So it's going to happen. So as long as there's no malice, just understand that it's going to happen.

So it can happen here in law enforcement or on the PD side, the fireside, public works, water and power, they all have people. And people are going to drive cars. They're going to work equipment, they're going to have a misstep. They're going to cut a pipe that they shouldn't have cut. That's going to cost the city money, and that's what you need to pay attention to. Again, smalls matter.

Jon Becker: That's a great way to put it. Okay. I want to finish our time together by asking you five rapid fire questions.

Mike Albanese: Oh, God!

Jon Becker: So the goal here is one. Yeah. Short answer, initial off the top of your head reaction.

Mike Albanese: Right.

Jon Becker: What is your most important habit?

Mike Albanese: I'm very regimented as far as when I get up, get up and then go to the gym. So very regimented when it comes to that.

Jon Becker: What do you think the most important thing for building an effective team is?

Mike Albanese: Presence in communication.

Jon Becker: What's your current favorite online resource? Website? Podcast? Where do you go for information?

Mike Albanese: So I'm all over the place. I listen to a variety of podcasts. I like Mike Rowe because he listens to or interviews such very different individuals. The one individual that he interviewed had a GPA and is a PhD at Harvard. So how does that happen? So I listen to him.

Jon Becker: Interesting! What do you think the most important characteristic of an effective leader is?

Mike Albanese: There's gotta be humility. And just understand that you're not gonna know everything and you have to depend on people to pick you up when you're not seeing what other folks are seeing.

Jon Becker: Final question. You've been through 52 of the most advanced years, the most transformative years. What's the most profound memory of your career?

Mike Albanese: There's too many. I can't identify one. There are too many incidents, too many call ups that I'll think about, and I'll go, okay, that's it. And there's just been too many. So I wish I could give you one, but I really can't.

Jon Becker: Mike, thanks so much for doing this with me!

Mike Albanese: Hopefully, I didn't babble too much.

Jon Becker: That was fantastic!

Mike Albanese: Yeah. Okay, great!