<p style=’color:white;’><u><strong>Episode 38 – The Emergency Mind – Kentucky State Police SRT</strong></u></p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>In late August of 2020, the Kentucky State Police Special Response team attempted to execute search and arrest warrants on a family compound in Johnson Holler, a heavily wooded and very rural area of Kentucky. The suspect, who was being sought on a potential murder and drug related charges, had hiding locations and weapons throughout the compound and had built a series of hardened firing positions from which to attack officers. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>In the 48 hours that followed, the team would have two officers involved shootings with two different suspects, all on the same compound. This event would stretch the team and its resources to their limits. Yet the team rose to the challenge, yielding a successful outcome despite almost impossible conditions. This case provides numerous lessons learned and teaching points about rural operations and the dangers of unexpected challenges. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>My guests today are Sergeant Heath Ayers and Trooper Logan Smith from the Kentucky State Police Special Response team. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>My name is Jon Becker. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>For the past four decades, I've dedicated my life to protecting tactical operators. During this time, I've worked with many of the world's top law enforcement and military units. As a result, I've had the privilege of working with the amazing leaders who take teams into the world's most dangerous situations. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>The goal of this podcast is to share their stories in hopes of making us all better leaders, better thinkers, and better people. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Welcome to The Debrief! </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Guys, thanks for being here with me today!</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Thanks for having us!</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, appreciate it!</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Why don't we start with just kind of overview of the team? Like, give me a little understanding about how Kentucky State police special response team works.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So we've got a full time team. We cover the whole state from Mayfield to Pikeville, which is west to east. We can go as far as north and Covington, all the way south of the Tennessee line. We are fully operation 13 guys. We are on call 24/7, 365, fully outfitted with multiple armor vehicles and a lot of really nice gear.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>What's your, what's your typical operational temple in a year? Like, how many ops does the team usually see?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>I think it fluctuates a little bit. I would say we're pretty close to hitting 100, 100 plus each year. But it's different. It's not always barricades. It's not always hrs. It's a lot of help with the drug guys and our desi units and stuff like that. So it can fluctuate.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. What I mean is most of your work kind of warrants, arrest warrant type of stuff, or what's, what's most of the work?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Yeah, I would say we do a lot of pre planned warrant services, both search and arrest warrants and then barricades.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yep. Makes sense. So set me up how this Johnson Hollow event starts. When do you guys first get involved in this incident?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>We actually. And that's kind of the tricky part about this whole incident. We actually didn't even find out about this case until July of 2020, so it was kind of thrown on our lap. But the actual Knox county sheriff's office, where this took place, they actually dealt with this back in December of 2019. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So you can kind of paint your picture there of the timeframe. And they originally had the contact with the suspect, and what makes actually started the case from there. But we actually, as a team, didn't. We didn't even find out about it until July.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So Knox county, what. What happens in January of 2020 that Knox county gets involved with this guy?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Okay. The Knox county sheriff's office had been working a drug case against this guy, and basically he was involved in narcotics methamphetamine. And they had some tips. They were all just trying to do a search warrant on his residence. And this is the middle of nowhere, Kentucky, if you're familiar with the show, Harlan, and all that kind of justified thing that's kind of there you're dealing with. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But we were in Knox county, and he just – When the sheriff's office shows up that day to serve a search warrant, they don't locate anybody at the actual residence. And as they are looking around, they're searching the wooded area, and they actually run into the suspect there. And he's on a four wheeler in a ghillie suit, and he actually has an AK 47 style rifle strapped to his back. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So they kind of challenge him there in the woods. He gets off the foiler, takes the rifle off his back, turns towards them. There's no exchange of gunfire at the point, but he does take off running in the woods. So they just kind of hold back, from what I can tell and from that investigation, and that's when they actually kind of pursue him just a bit. But then they start noticing all these fortified shooting positions and different ambush spots he's got up all over the mountain.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So they make a decision that they're going to terminate.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yep.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Engagement with him.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. I think there was just two of them at the time. And they just backed out. And basically, unfortunately, they really didn't notify KSP at the time. So even then, that was kind of a – They could have called us then, possibly. They could have notified the actual local post there. To get some troopers involved. But, yeah, they just kind of kept that to themselves at the moment.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And so, like, just, you know, to give context, because I grew up in a city in California, so I don't think the average person understands how rural this part of Kentucky is. So give me some context as to what are we talking about property sizes? What are the towns like?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>I would just picture it as that kind of that one like town. Very rural areas. Most of these houses are tucked up in, tucked up in these hollers or tucked up in the side of a mountain. And very, I mean, it's just very, very rural. You're talking probably each little town probably doesn't have but a couple thousand people when you're dealing with these smaller little communities in that area. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And unfortunately, it's just very poverty driven, a lot of low income in the mountains, and you're starting to cut out the coal business as well. So you're having to deal with people that just don't have a lot.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And from a local law enforcement standpoint, like, okay, you got a town with a couple thousand people who's policing that town?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Well, that's kind of the case. Is your, your departments, even then, the local PD's and even your sheriff's office and that kind of thing, they just don't have the manpower. They're in the same battle as everybody else, so they just don't have the bodies. So thankfully, KSP is a little different. We aren't kind of your typical highway patrol like you see with other state agencies. And we actually do a lot of rural work. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we're answering calls for service. They're just, there's not a lot of highways running through Kentucky other than 65 and a couple big ones, but there's just not a lot. So we're actually answering a lot of calls for service in these rural counties, just like a typical sheriff's office or PD would.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>But you are talking, like, rural hill country here.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Oh, yeah, yeah. Backcountry forest. Yes. I mean, yeah. And that's why I kind of mentioned justified because I think that's a show that probably everybody can relate to or have seen on Netflix, that kind of thing. And that's really what you're dealing with. You're dealing with that rural atmosphere, lots of elevation and big woods. I mean, you're talking Daniel Boone National Forest and all that. So it's very, very rural.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. Okay, so skip forward now. July 2020, SP gets involved.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yep. We get the call basically post hand there. They get the call and they start their investigation. And basically it's at this time, they still haven't really talked with Knox county sheriff's office, but they've already started working up their own investigation in regards to the drug involvement. And so they're starting to talk with their CIS and they're getting all this information about the drug activity, obviously. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But now they've actually received information that possibly the suspect has killed another individual with a 22 and kind of hit him in the – hid his body in the woods. Basically, after all this information, they actually do start relaying a little bit of mess relaying a little bit of information with that Knox county sheriff's office. And that's when they build their case and start getting some arrest warrants and search warrants for the suspect's house and that property.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So we're working a drug case, but quickly building a murder case.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes. Yeah. And they had all intentions on it. I think everything they were receiving from the CI was pretty accurate at the point. At this point. And just based on their, the guys tendencies and after talking with Knox county sheriff's office, they were, he was a pretty bad dude.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So eventually they do get ahold of Knox county and find out that they'd had this prior altercation with them. Okay.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. Yep.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay. So then when, when does the team become involved here?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>We, shortly after that, they kind of started working the case and realized how, how dangerous and kind of the scope of it. And we actually found out about the case. Right? Early August 2020. So we're talking several months after the fact. And that's when we're actually getting a lot of information from post level detectives and they're starting to share all this information and we start kind of getting our game plan, getting all our ducks in a row to actually scout and do our due diligence, I guess, on this particular incident.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. Because, I mean, I'm guessing even scouting a location like this is going to be difficult because in a town of 2000 people, a couple of cops rolling through with a camera is definitely going to attract some attention.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. You're not, you're not going in these areas any marked cars. It's just everybody knows when the nod cars in the holler are in that area and they're all calling their buddies, they're all friends, they're usually all relatives. And that's just, that's just how that area operates.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. I guess it's another aspect of kind of the rural south that you don't think about when you live in big cities is that some of these are, like family compounds.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Oh, yeah, exactly. This particular instant, not to jump ahead, but his parents lived literally probably 50 yards behind him, and then an uncle lived within another 50 yards beside him. So we're on the family farm kind of thing with. And that's just what we knew about. We're not talking cousins and that kind of thing that live across the street and all that. So, yeah, we're right there on the family farm, and everybody knows everybody.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. So. So, you know, I mean, every single call is a giant domestic disturbance where, you know, you're going in there to arrest a member of their family. Yeah. That sounds just lovely. So, all right, you guys start. You get tasked with this thing. How do you scout this?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Thankfully, we're pretty lucky. And if you think in rural kentucky, a lot of us are outdoorsmen, we know kind of what to look for. Thankfully. And we actually utilized our aircraft branch early on because we wanted to see if all this intel with him possibly living in the woods and having those fortified fighting positions like the pitchers from the Knox County Sheriff's Office showed us, we were kind of hoping that we would be able to kind of pinpoint that area that he was hiding in and then using that bird to possibly just give us some. Some points to actually, like, focus on. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we originally started with that, and at the time, it was just. The foliage was just too thick, so we couldn't really see a lot. But I – We really relied on just basically maps and topos and stuff like that. So it was really important for our guys to really focus on the terrain, the terrain features. And just by that intel, we could, for the most part, kind of pinpoint a certain area that if he was actually living in the woods, it would kind of have to be this general area based on the elevation and where the flats were and that kind of thing.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>The pictures you got from Knox, like, I – As I'm reading this incident and kind of thinking through it, I'm picturing, like, a house and the guy living in a house, but he's not living in a house, right?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>No, his house is right next to the road, but it is a trailer, but he was actually living in the woods behind the house in supposedly, like a tent. And it was at that point, that's all the kind of information we had. All the intel just gathered was a tent of some sort. And those pictures that we got from Knox county sheriff's office kind of show several different tents. And as you can tell from those photos that was in January. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So basically, there's no foliage, there's no leaves. There's no ground cover whatsoever. So you're actually seeing all that area with no foliage covering it up? No, nothing like that. So it was really just more of just tents and tarps and that kind of thing.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And fighting positions and hills and trees and relatives surrounding them.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, it sounds really easy. I don't know why you guys. Yeah, it's basically sounds like trigonometry did to me in high school.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Right.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And those fighting positions is not just kind of a makeshift something you do. I mean, he had actually put some time and effort into it with a actually, like, four by fours and actually using stones to stack up and camouflaging them with, like, tarps and different stuff like that. So, I mean, he was. He was definitely committed, and I think his intentions were accurate.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So, I mean, from your perspective, is he building those fighting positions knowing that eventually law enforcement's gonna come get him and so he's gonna need to be able to engage in a protracted gun battle with the police?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, I do. I really do think that that was probably most of it, and I think just someone like him and any drug user, I think they're just paranoid people in general. So whether it was for us and he had made statements that, hey, he's not going to jail, he'd be willing to shoot it out with law enforcement, it was either that or even other addicts or drug dealers, that kind of thing. It could have been something like that, too. But I think it was just. That was definitely his intentions.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And I'm assuming, going in, you've probably already run intel, I'm going to guess, because he's in a rural Kentucky, he owns a gun.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Oh, yeah, 100 of them. Yes. I would say several. Everybody we deal with, it's kind of the whole you got the gun hanging in the back window kind of thing, and that's everyone. You just expect everybody to have a gun, and that's perfectly fine. But, yeah, when you're dealing with someone like him, he's definitely going to be armed.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay, so we move forward September 2020. You guys have done your scouting. You're gonna execute the warrant. Walk me through that.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Okay. We had basically, we completed all our scouts the best we could, and that was using the aircraft. We did a couple different drive bys, and like I say, that was in all unmarked, very quick, just trying to get a lay of the land, and then kind of starting to plan where we put our QRT where we put, where we stage all our equipment and that kind of thing. But basically after we had gathered all that and decided what we were going to do, we actually had to kind of hold off a little bit for manpower issues. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we mentioned we're a 13 man team that cover the entire state, and we would have liked to actually probably hit this almost immediately after getting that intel. But we had guys that were actually out for just vacations, trainings, and that kind of thing. So that was one thing that kind of held that off. So when we, when people kind of probably wonder why did it take so long for these guys to hit this? </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Number one, that was an issue. But it was also this guy wasn't actually really out in the community wreaking havoc. He was actually just kind of to himself, but he was dealing drugs. And then the possible case of him actually murdering somebody, that was kind of raising flags. But it wasn't like he was actively out in the community causing trouble. So that's kind of why we held that off a little bit, just for manpower. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And basically after our, basically after all our scouts and all our information, we just, we knew this was something that we were needing all hands on deck kind of thing. </p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Makes sense.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>But to get, get to your question. So we basically decided that we would need everybody, number one. But we ended up putting our QRT staging location about, probably about two or 3 miles from the actual target. And we were going to plan on infilling a Woods team or actually two woods teams at about 08:00 a.m. that morning. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And the reason kind of for that is through those photos, we had already decided and already found out that he very possibly had some early warning devices, whether it was like fishing lines and coke cans kind of thing, hanging in the woods. But also we knew of these fortified fighting positions and that he was actually living and knew that farm, if you want to say, or that area like the back of his hand. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we wanted it to be daylight. We had the capability to run MVGs and that kind of thing. But we were just making sure that we could actually see and not have to deal with school buses, traffic, and we could actually get off that main road and get in the woods. But we dropped off the two woods elements and then we actually dropped off basically an observation unit that was going to be standing across the road just kind of watching the house at that time.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. And so your, your woods teams give me how many guys? What are we doing? How are they equipped?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>We had basically two woods teams, and obviously this time of year, there's tons of foliage. It was very green. So we were all outfitted basically in our camo, like our tropic gear, face painted gloves, that kind of thing, with hats and all that. And we were also, each of us had our rifles, binoculars and that kind of thing. Because basically our game plan was hopefully we were going to be able to clear as much of these woods as possible, either locate these tents, clear them, and then basically collapse down on the house and just basically serve a standard search warrant on that residence. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So that was kind of the best case scenario for us at that time. And while we were actually going to be in the woods, we were basically just hoping that our other team that was across the road, just basically being an overwatch position, we're going to be able to find our suspect coming in and out of the house, that kind of thing. And then we were going to collapse on the house at that point. And then we would also have that containment on the backside of that house as well. Obviously it didn't work out like that, but it never does.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So, search warrants for the property or the house?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>We had search warrant for basically the house the property, which was, I think, give or take approximately 30 acres, and then actually his uncle's house and his parents residence as well. So basically the entire property and everything on it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. The whole compound, correct?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yep.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>In this case, I think the word compound is an appropriate work.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, I believe so. Our game plan there was basically to kind of, we were going to work together and try to just get up on top of the mountain and use that, use the actual terrain as we could see it on our maps and that kind of thing. And basically get a group that was moving more on, like, kind of the lower level and then another group to get really, really high and basically kind of parallel each other across this ridge, basically, and kind of get to the point that we thought, or the area that we actually thought that we could actually pinpoint the possibility of him actually having these structures or these fighting positions. Intense.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So try to give me as best you can. It's hard to describe property in a forest, but what's the shape of this thing? Are we in a canyon or a hauler or what's it look like? How much elevation gain is there?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>You're definitely in what we would call a holler. And basically it's just these houses are just right off the road. So his house is probably ten yards off the road and directly behind his house. It went straight up, probably another 20, 30 ft, and it kind of flattened off and it kind of just staggered like that, kind of like that stair step all the way up this mountain. So, I mean, we're thinking probably 700 ft elevation, give or take, here and there with. With different levels of aggression, I guess you could say, on that. But, yeah, it was, I mean, very, very hilly, pretty rough terrain and thick at that. So we're always dealing with that as well.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And just for the more urban audience, give me a definition of a hauler.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Basically, a holler would just be just a small area that runs in between or runs up a mountain. So the lower area that would run up kind of like a drain going up a mountain or a hillside, kind of where it's flat enough to where people can actually build houses and have, and put a foundation to put these trailers on, that kind of thing. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So usually it's a one lane road going up into this area with houses kind of staggering on each side. But this particular one just basically was. Had just enough room to fit his uncle's house, his house and his parents house. And then it went straight up into the hillside and the mountainside.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. And what are we talking for? Like, what kind of trees? What's the foliage like?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Which, that time of year in Kentucky is usually really, really thick. So you've got all your lower undergrowth, which is actually coming off the ground. It was really, really thick and green and leafy. And then you got your just big mature trees, so you've got your walnuts, your white oaks, your maples, that kind of thing. So the big mature trees that are, number one, they, they're all the foliage, so you're blocking out a lot of the sunlight. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So it's usually, it's pretty dark in the woods at that time of the year, so you're not getting a lot of sunlight through, but just that undergrowth, that's what caused that undergrowth to really flourish. And so it was really, really thick, actually, on the ground level. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So you're getting big mature trees, you're getting that undergrowth, so you're probably visibility. I mean, it varied, but a lot of times, I mean, you could see 30 yards ahead of you and then everything else, you were just having to really be cautious and clearing what you could see and moving around different objects and that kind of thing.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. And you're trying to move in with stealth, too. Right? So it's like, you know, not breaking branches not making a lot of noise.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. And like I said, we're trying to do this. We didn't really know if any of this stuff existed outside of the photos we had. So, yeah, we were just really trying to be cautious, be patient, and. And really be stealthy just to try to move through these woods knowing that that's not our territory. That was his home. That was his home court, as we could say. And he knew everything, but it was our first time in those woods.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And so your goal being shrink the problem to the house if possible?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, during our brief, like, best case scenario would, we would clear the hillside, the mountainside behind his house, not locate him or anything in the tents, and then we would actually just collapse down and I perform just a standard search warrant surrounding call out and slow play it from there.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And the rationale being that if you just hit the house, he's just going to disappear into the woods anyways, right?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. Yeah. And we would have some containment and be able to deal with him if that were the case.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. And you have search warrant and arrest warrant or just search warrant?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>At the time, we had both. I think we had, actually a search and arrest warrant on.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. So he's going either way. Okay, so how far, like, your infill point versus the house? What's the distance and how long does it take you guys to cover it?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>I would say our actual infill location was probably a quarter of a mile from the house, just around a curve to where we couldn't actually. So you couldn't see the house or anything like that. And we strategically actually infilled in a certain area just to keep even neighbors from being able to see us get out. But, yeah, I would say a quarter mile from the house. And then our observation team, we got them on here as Charlie, but they basically were a couple hundred yards off the house, on the other opposite hillside across the road. But, yeah, that was. We tried to stay off the best we could just from that actual target.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And then you said you had a QRT team. I'm assuming, like, quick response team that if you have an issue, that's going to be your QRF, for lack of better term.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes. Correct. And they were probably about, I would say, ten minutes away at the max, and that's with armored Bearcats, armored suburbans and that kind of thing. So they were basically just standing by and hopefully we were just going to call them in. Hey, we're. We're collapsing on the house. We'll hold security on it until you guys get here, and we'll just conduct our surrounding call out. So that was kind of the plan. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And then while we were actually moving through the woods, the best we could, if, like I said, if our observation team actually saw anything different, then they would be able to relay all that information through radio traffic.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. Okay, so you're on one of these containment teams. You're on the other one, right?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>I'm actually on the QRT.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>You're on the QRT. Got it. Okay. All right, so. And how big is the QRT at this point? What do you guys have?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So the QRT has got five operators, and that's also with assistance from k nine handlers. Our lieutenant was there at the time. So it's not just operators. It's got a few different people that could operate vehicles for us.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. And you're going to be, you know, either the team that's going to come in and conduct the search once they collapse on the house, or if things go sideways, you're. You're the responding team and dealing with whatever happens.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Yes. Correct. So if the actual mission took place, that they could clear the woods and then contain a. The house. There's multiple structures there, so we could fall in and pick up those securities on those different residences as well.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>What's the distance between, like, his house and his parents house and his uncle's house?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>I would say the distance from the uncle's house to his house, maybe 100 yards.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay. But I'm assuming that is not a flat. Hundred yards, you know, with a walking track between the two.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Actually, on that one, it was a straight shot.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Really?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Yeah.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Yard to yard meant flat. It's nice and flat, which isn't also an issue because that house can see that house. So we have issues with cover concealment, and also holding security on both properties.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. Okay, so you guys are infilling and getting close, and what happens?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>So we had our main team, and, like I said, pushed to the top of the mountain, and then the lower team was kind of pushing that flat that we could see on our topo maps. But, yeah, as my team was actually on top of the mountain, the team on the flat actually encountered what they were just calling a tent, and they couldn't see much of it. They could just tell it looked like a tarp. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And basically, when they informed us that they had actually located something, they actually started relaying their coordinates via the Garmin, their Garmin phone app. Okay. And then we just used those coordinates to punch them into our watches and actually started to backtrack to them and try to set up some type of el ambush on that location. As we were actually backtracking, trying to get towards them, they had said that they had heard a foiler start up and head up the mountain. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So while they were sitting there and while we were trying to move to them, they actually encounter a male individual on a four wheeler. And he pulls up next to the side of what they call in this tent. And they're relaying all this as well over comms, but he gets off. They can't really id the guy. It's just through that thick foliage. So they're just kind of trying to get what they can get. And he ends up walking in the tent. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So now we know we've actually got. They've made contact with somebody, at least visually. So we're trying to actually get to them the best we can and obviously being pretty quiet and moving through them woods as well, hoping not to encounter anything else. But once they actually receive contact, we try to just work to them and set up that good solid ale ambush for them.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So does this, the suspect on the four wheeler do that?. Does he see them or do they just see him?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Nope. He did not see them. So he pulls in, not aware that anybody's around, and he just hops off the four wheeler and walks right in the tent. They had mentioned that they could smell marijuana coming from the tent. So we think he just went in the tent and was just smoking some marijuana or something like that.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. Okay, what happens next?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Okay, while we're. While we're moving to them and we're trying to get set up the best we can. And anybody that's listening knows that tactical l we're talking about. We're trying to set that up on this location. And as we're doing so and trying to get guys in position, we actually, there's another male and female and a dog that just come walking through the middle of the woods. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we had no idea where they were. We don't know where they came from. They were just walking down a trail, talking and walking this dog. Well, we obviously, everybody holds and is trying to relay that information. So as soon as they get to the 10th and they both go in the tent as well. So now we've actually got three people in this tent, or tarp, whatever you want to call at the time now to deal with. And we couldn't id any of them, other than just knowing that it was two males and a female and a dog at that point, as we're trying to get set up, I'm kind of more in an observation point to where I can actually use my binoculars and I'm trying to watch. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And the female comes in out of ten a couple times, but you could barely, you could barely see much of anything just because the foliage. So you're kind of looking through that thick vegetation, and you're catching just glimpse of her coming in and out of. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So, next thing, I actually see the male come out, or one of the males, and he's looking, he's kind of looking around, not really paying attention to anything. But it was a little odd. Cause he started kind of scanning the area, I thought, and he goes back in. So I'm kind of telling the guys, be like, hold tight. Stick what you got. He was kind of scanning around, but I really didn't think much about it. And then he comes out just a few seconds later, and he's actually holding two pistols. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So I tell the guys, hey, he has two pistols. He has one in each hand, and I'm trying to relay that to everybody. And he's actually, now he's actively kind of searching, scanning through that wooded area. So still, we don't know if he saw something or heard something, but at this point, we're on high alert. And he actually starts at that point, walking through the woods towards some of our woods team members. So he's got the guns behind his back, and if you can kind of picture he's got a gun in both hands. He kind of puts them down to his side, and he's kind of slowly scanning around the woods, kind of bending down. He's trying to see through that foliage, too. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So he's kind of creeping through the woods, but I can definitely tell that he's actually looking at something in one of our guys. So they actually get ready, and one of them actually challenges him. So immediately it's Kentucky state police, drop the guns. And about simultaneously to that, the guy actually raises two pistols, kind of dueling pistols. And that's when he engages our trooper engages and actually hits him. He falls backwards, and he actually gets right back up almost immediately and kind of leans up. And that's when a couple other troopers also engaged him to eliminate that threat. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>The worst case about that is when he actually raised his pistols and was. And we started engaging him. Shots were fired from the tent, from the other suspect. So we've engaged this guy simultaneously that we're getting engaged from the tent by another guy, and then him and the female actually run out of the tent, and while they're running away, he's actually firing rounds at us over his shoulder, kind of as he's running away from us.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>The second male?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>The second male, correct.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So first male's down.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yep.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Guy with two guns. He's down.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Second male shoots at you from the tent. Then he and the female start running, and he is engaging at, you know, shooting at you, basically. Over his shoulder.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes. Yeah. With the female in tow. So from my perspective, actually, I was. Even through our interviews, I actually thought that the first male that came out with the dueling. Duel in the pistols, I thought he actually was the one that engaged us. I was so focused on him at that point that I really thought that he had shot. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But later on, we come to find out that, no, they were actually coming from the tent, from that other suspect. So later, kind of in the investigation, I think the female actually admitted that they had thought they had heard something. Whether that's true or not, we don't know whether the main suspect actually had the other guy go out and kind of do his dirty work for him, thinking that maybe there are some guys wanting to rob him or who knows at that point. But, yeah, we'll just never know.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Was the dog barking?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>No dog. The dog never barked. So it was just a puppy. It was just a little dog. But, no, we never really. Never really heard the dog got it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So it wasn't the dog that tipped him off. You know, I was wondering, like, did the dog.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>You guys up on scent or something?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>No. And as you know, that happens a lot. But, no, the dog. The dog had no idea.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Interesting. Okay, so this guy and the female now run off into the woods, basically.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yep. Correct. And as he's running off and engaging, we actually kind of do, like you're taught shoot, move, communicate kind of thing. And he's obviously got that female in tow. Right. He's kind of got her by the hand, dragging her behind him, is what it looked like from my point of view. But the female actually kind of shoots off right back, kind of going towards behind the ten area, and he continues running, shooting, and we actually try to engage him through that thick foliage and try to eliminate him as a threat as well as he's running down the woods. Through the woods. And we just. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>At that point, he actually kind of engaged another, got into a little gunfight with another one of our guys. It was kind of on that far end of that l kind of our last man, and at that point, we kind of lost visual of him, and we kind of just held there for a second just to kind of get our bearings about us, kind of have that tactical pause, I guess you could say, and making sure everybody's okay, everybody's accounted for, and just kind of reevaluate our situation at that point.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, because it wasn't scary enough. Now, you've lost a guy that shot at you in the woods on his property.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Right, knowing what he's got all over this hillside. So. And obviously, I didn't have that viewpoint of it, but after talking with our other guys that were actually that observation team, they're sitting on the other hillside across the road from this guy's house, and they're just kind of hearing our radio traffic prior to all this. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And next thing you know, they're hearing gunfire and they're hearing suppressed gunfire along with unsuppressed gunfire. So you can only imagine what they were thinking at that point. But that basically went immediately. They did exactly what they were supposed to, and their job was to activate the QRT quick reaction team and send them our way. So, kudos to those guys. I mean, they did their job, and they basically got us guys down to us as quick as we could. So they were kind of in no man's land, and I hate it for them, but they were. They couldn't help. But their only job at that point was to call our QRT and let everybody else know what's going on.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. So you guys are on the hillside, you know, in the woods, having just shot a suspect. Shot at another suspect. Don't know whether you hit him or not. He shot at you. The female has split and headed somewhere. The male has continued deeper into the woods, shooting at your last man in the L. And now you've lost basically both of those two suspects somewhere in the woods of Kentucky with a gun. And, yeah, I'm going to guess from the QRT standpoint, this is getting spicy really fast.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So the issue with that part of Kentucky is radios can only go so far, especially direct line of sight. So with the people in the woods, they had a direct line of communication with the observation team, but they did not have direct comms with the QRT. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So everybody at QRT had no clue any of this was going on. No communication other than just small updates. And then until we had the message to launch, that's when we found out there was a gunfight in the woods.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Man, this keeps getting worse, doesn't it?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. I mean, I could just imagine myself, and I talked to one of the guys, and I – It's just kind of that helpless feeling for them was they knew we were in a gunfight. They knew we were in some type of battle, and they could just hear it echoing off that hillside. They didn't actually know our exact location, just kind of where they thought it was. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But, yeah, those guys, they felt pretty helpless. But I'll give them credit, man. They did their job, and they got guys to us quick.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And even from a nav standpoint. Right? You guys don't even. Even the two woods teams probably don't know where every. Every member of the other woods team is.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. And we were trying to kind of keep that line of sight between each one of us. But, yeah, when I say thick foliage and when we're engaging this. This guy, I mean, if anybody's actually been in deep, thick woods, which I'm sure a lot of listeners have, and when it's got thick foliage, you're just catching bits and pieces of this guy running off. And I guess the best thing about it, I guess, and unfortunately for him, I remember him specifically having some khaki pants on and no shirt and that kind of thing. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So he kind of stuck out, obviously, running through that green foliage. But you just don't have good shots. You're just trying to catch him in that open area and try your best, actually get contact with him and actually just whatever you can to eliminate that threat at that point. So it just really, really thick. We could see each other, but not very well. And like I said, when all that gunfire was going on, you just. You kind of had that second step back and be like, hey, I hope. I hope everyone's okay. We just didn't know.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So what do you guys do next?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Basically, we kind of had that, like I said, kind of that tactical pause. So once we confirmed everybody was okay, we basically kind of collapsed down, made sure that the first individual we engaged, we made sure that he was no longer a threat and secured him. And then we actually pushed, a couple of us actually pushed over to that far lithe, the other trooper there that kind of got in that last engagement with the suspect. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we kind of pushed to him to make sure he was okay and basically get his. Get information from him. Hey, where was he at? What was his last known? Which way did he go? Because at that point, we had all lost. Everybody else had lost visual, but him. So we basically just kind of took a second, got our wits about us again. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And basically at this time, we've actually got a bird in the air. And thankfully, and we'll get to this later, kind of. Your kind of. One of the pros is basically he, our pilot in command at the point and actually the head over our program for that. Our aircraft branch is a former team member, so he knew what we were dealing with. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Not exactly, obviously, because he wasn't on the ground, but he knew what we were kind of expecting, what we were wanting from him. And he actually was flying over, doing his best to utilize his flir to actually try to locate these individuals that fled. Obviously, I mentioned earlier that foliage, especially with big mature trees, is just. It's really cutting out on all that flir and all that imaging he can actually get. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But thankfully, he did actually end up locating what he thought at the time was two individuals. So basically our. The female split, like we mentioned earlier. So female went right. He kind of continued down that ridge, but our aircraft branch was basically saying, hey, I've got. I do have a heaton signature. I do have somebody on this hillside looks like they're land prone kind of thing. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And so we kind of just basically move up into a better position, kind of trying to maintain that good tactical l. And then he actually says, and it's in the PowerPoint there where you get the. We got some video of it where he's actually identifies it actually being, hey, I think it's the female. And actually it's a dog. It's not another man. And he actually can see them coming down the hillside. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So immediately he's kind of walking them to us through comms, really. We haven't seen her yet, but. And we're kind of trying not to give up our position the best we can, but we're trying to actually verbalize to her, hey, state police, show us your hands, come down the hill, that kind of thing. And then finally we do end up seeing her coming down. And she was cooperative, the best she could be, I guess, and what you kind of would expect. But we were at least able to get her down the hill, detain her as well, and at least know. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>All right, now we've got two of the individuals. Now we're just missing the other male suspect, but that flir. And we can get to that later on. Our kind of what came out of all this. But with him being a prior team member and having that capability, it actually located her fairly quick and eliminated. Just one other problem we were having to deal with.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, that's, you cut your problem in half.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. Yeah.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Which is not a bad deal to take.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. And the footage is good. I mean, it was pretty clear. But you can tell just by the folded. You're. You're kind of catching bits and pieces. So he. He did a great job. And then he tried continually find the other male too, but it was just too thick. And he just wasn't catching anything else.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. So now you've got the female in custody. Is she cooperative?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, she's pretty cooperative. She's obviously distraught, as you can imagine. And she wasn't, I don't think, involved, obviously, or had any ill intent towards any of us. She was just caught, literally caught in that situation. But she was tore up. We were trying to get as much info as we could on who the individuals were. Did he say anything? Did he have any guns on him? Just kind of your basic information. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But at that point, we just kind of were detaining her and we went ahead. Cause at this point, we're really close to that tenta. So we needed to clear that structure, I guess you could say, before moving on to the next chapter, I guess. So we actually just got our containment and got our. Our wits about us and actually end up trying to clear that tent to eliminate that and kind of focus all our attention towards the direction that he fled.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Got it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And by now the QRT is rolling up on you guys?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes. Now they're rolling up. Now we're in the middle of the woods, right up on a hillside that they know of basically a direction, but they don't know exactly where we're at. So they're actually just pulling into this guy's driveway at this point. And we're not as we're not sure if he's fled back to his house. We're not sure if he's went to the uncle's house or what. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So they're having to deal with that, with those issues as well as we're trying to deal with issues we've got up on the mountain. So. And he may be able to walk us through that a little better than me just because I wasn't there on that particular.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So you guys roll into the driveway. What happens?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So we get the message to launch. We start heading that way. We know that we have the main suspect's house to deal with, but the main house that we're going to first take down is the uncle's. The observation team. Early in the morning, did observe a couple suspects, subjects. They couldn't id them correctly. They couldn't possibly id that there was two males, female, walking back and forth from the suspect's house to the uncle's house, back and forth. They couldn't positive id. So we had to take that into account when we launched and initially set up on the uncle's house. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So, once we set up on the house, the observation team comes down from their position and pluses up our armored car, and we do a surrounding call out perimeter, set up the perimeter, do a surrounding call out, and start working our process to try to get possibly the uncle and more people out of the house.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. And who comes out.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So, ended up the uncle was not there. But a couple different people came out that we had never seen on any intel reports, didn't see that day. And after our process was completed, we cleared the structure, and we could not find the main suspect or the uncle.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. And do we – Have we gotten any information yet as to who's been shot in the woods and who's run off into the woods? Like, I'm assuming you're thinking it may be your suspect, but what do we know at this point?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And it just so happens that me and another one of the guys on the team were the ones that actually headed up the scout and. And had kind of the initial information and gave the brief to the guys. So I immediately knew that. That the original. The first male that we encounter was not our actual suspect. He was just someone else we had had to encounter. Right? So I knew at that point that not necessarily knowing that the other guy was our main suspect, but we did have another male that had ran off that kind of matched that description. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But we were at least able to later id the male, deceased male and then the female. And then we actually got them off the mountain as quick as we could.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Who is the deceased male, out of curiosity? His uncle or.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>No, it was just a. I guess a friend at the time. I think it was actually the female's boyfriend.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>So I think they were just friends or acquaintances, I guess.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Picked a bad day to take the gun into the woods.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay, so you guys are clearing the house, QRT cleared the house, don't have the uncle. What's next?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So we end up moving from the uncle's house and move up to support capacity into the woods.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And do you guys, at the point that you dismount and head up into the woods, do you have a pretty good sense of where your team is, or are you guys still kind of scattered.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>They did a really good job of communicating the lay, the land, and also the best infill spot for the QRT to transition to. I will say that the clearance of the structure was not a fast procedure. It was a lengthy procedure rightfully so, with all the unknowns. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But the other thing that we also had with the QRT is it was the lesser seniority guys. So the five were the kind of the five lower. So it was kind of new to our qRT as far as experience level in seniority. It did take a little bit of time, so it made the woods team guys be in the woods for even longer. But once we cleared that and moved our infield spot, we moved up into the woods tried to support them best we could and get some type of laid land so we can start clearing more of the woods.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay. All right, so you guys are sitting up in the woods, waiting for them to clear the house. Are you still hunting the suspect?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, just a little bit. Basically we had. So basically we cleared that initial tent that they had went in and came out of, and then we actually went to the last known position that our last trooper, and they got in that little gunfight. So we actually found where that position was. We could see bullets hitting the tree where they had hit the tree. We could see where he actually slid. It's almost like he tried, he was trying to run up the hill, but it was just too steep, and he slid back down. As he was engaging. We didn't see any blood or anything like you would, you would hope, I guess, for in that case. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But we kind of at least had a decent, decent travel, I guess, where he would win. But unfortunately, literally, as soon as we started that initial track, or kind of was trying to find that track and find that path, we encounter another tent. So now we've got another structure that we didn't know about that was only 20, 30 yards away from us, and we just never knew it was there just because how thick it was. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And now we're kind of thinking, oh, well, now he's, he just made it in this tent, and now he's probably rearmed waiting for us, that kind of thing. So now that's in the back of our head. So we basically kind of slow roll it again, slow back down. And we're actually, as those guys are coming up the hill to us, we go ahead and have one of them just grab one of our robots. It's kind of in a backpack, and we bring it up and actually utilize it to clear that tent.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>He was just rolled in with a little robot.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yep. Yep. Tried to roll in a robot just without having to stick our head around the corner, obviously knowing that he's got all these ambush spots. So we were being extremely cautious at this point. But you're also just to get a timeframe as we're getting late into the evening. And in eastern Kentucky, that time of the year, you're obviously losing light earlier in the day anyways. And now you've got this thick foliage. So we're really starting to battle the nightfall. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And so now in the back of our heads, we're thinking, hey, we've got a whole bunch of issues and a whole lot of problems, and now we've got darkness to deal with as well. So we kind of have another little powwow. Kind of just sit back and let's talk this through and see what our next step is going to be. Having to deal with that. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And unfortunately, a lot of us were not prepared for this op to last that long, so we were kind of just one of those things we'll talk about later. But we, as you get in your head, you're thinking, hey, we're going to infill. It's going to be over in a couple hours, and we'll be eating lunch together. Now, we're – It's getting dark. Several guys don't have MVGs. They didn't pack them just because they weren't expecting to be there till dark. Now you're running out of snacks, food, water, anything like that. You've packed. So we've got a whole bunch of issues really mountain up right now, and it's causing a lot of trouble.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, but, I mean, to the credit of the team, you guys are recognizing that this is evolving on you in a negative way. Right? It's very easy in these circumstances to just keep chasing the guy into the woods and put yourself in a worse and worse tactical situation. So you guys are taking the pause to go, hang. Hang on a minute here. Like, it's getting dark. We don't have MVGs. We're hungry, we're cold, we're wet, whatever.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Right. And, yeah, that's just kind of our ATL and our TLs just making those decisions because you're obviously, you want to go after this guy. You want to. He just engaged. You just had this incident, right. And you want to push that limit, but just knowing what you can do and what you can't, and we actually already had. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Obviously, as all this is unfolding, we're getting command staffs being notified. We've got basically every k nine in the state headed our way. We've got every trooper in the post district on scene at this point, at least on the main road. We're having them get on every other road around there. You're kind of blocking off, hoping maybe they just encounter him, maybe they see him running, maybe a neighbor calls him in kind of thing. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we're trying to do our due diligence on that aspect as well to provide some type of containment. But you're also dealing with a ginormous portion of woods with no house anywhere. So really, our search area at this point is just too large. It's too big, and we've got too many other issues to really push the envelope at this point.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>What did you decide to do?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>We were waiting on our critical incident response team, and basically we call them cert, but those guys are great. They basically work every single officer involved shooting in the state, and they do a really good job. So they work every agency's officer involved shooting. So obviously, once they realized that we were in an OISDE, they went ahead and came up on scene as we secured it the best we could and kind of started to do what they could with a little bit of light we had left and simultaneously that as well. We had actually notified FBI regional SWAT that, hey, we were going to need some relief and let them know of the situation and what we were going to be dealing with.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And regional FBI is Louisville? </p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>At that point, I'm pretty sure it was, but I'm pretty sure it's Louisville, but I'm not 100% sure.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So, I mean, what's their ETA when you put out to them? What are they giving you for an ETA to get there?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>I think they were around 4 or 5 hours, I believe, so we actually. We knew they were coming, thankfully. And we've got a good working relationship with those guys, so that's a blessing. But. So we've got our CERT guys on the hill as well. They're starting to realize, hey, we can do what we can do now, but we need to be off this mountain. We've got a armed suspect still on the loose on his home turf, and we're just not going to be able to do anything under darkness. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we basically actually back them out. We leave a couple troopers there, a couple SRT members, to kind of maintain security and basically wait for that regional SWAT team to show up. And basically, it was kind of a handoff of that area.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Is the suspect that the deceased suspect been evacuated or is he left in place?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>No, he was left in place. And basically that was a call that the command staff made, I believe, just basically due to the. Due to the incident in general, just all the moving parts and for Cert to get an accurate investigation, they didn't want to. They didn't want to pull him off the mountain. And also, we didn't want to bring EMS or anybody up there. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we were going to, if we were going to kind of exfil, I guess you say, him off that mountain, then we were going to have to do it. And they just decided, hey, if we're going to. If we're just going to hold and maintain security throughout the night on this area, just leave him here and provide security. And that's what we did.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, it's 100% the right call. I mean, trying to split the team's attention even further. How many of the guys on the team were engaged in the shooting? Like, how many shooters do you have at this point?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Let's see. At this point, we have got three shooters.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Now, are they going to pull those three shooters off or are they going to leave them on the problem?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And I take that that's four shooters. So we've got four people engaged him or gazed into gentlemen that afternoon, but they are basically the way that works. Those guys were pulled off a mountain so they weren't left to deal with. Holding that, maintaining that security while FBI showed up. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So it's kind of good thing on our team leaders just understanding, hey, knowing what they've been involved in and just getting them off X. Right? And just basically, hey, good job. You did what you had to do. Now let's go back. Let's get back to that safe area where you can kind of decompress a little bit. But, yeah, usually anytime we have an officer involved shooting, they are put on an admin leave, that kind of thing, and we go through our process with that CERT team to where they're doing their investigation.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. So we start off with 13 operators. We just lost four operators to the OISDE. A QRF has collapsed, and now you're starting to pull the team off the mountain. What time do you guys tender the scene to the FBI, you think?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>I'm not exactly sure the exact time, but I would say it was after midnight. I'm pretty sure it was just after midnight when we actually pulled off. So we started at. We infield at 08. And then we were kind of falling off the mountain there, the best we could.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>A little after midnight, 16 hours on scene, and an OIS and a lot of woods and.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Right. And I don't think I mentioned it earlier. We're talking late August in Kentucky. And if you're not familiar with that weather, it's usually extremely hot, extremely humid. And August is usually one of the hardest, hottest day or hottest months in the year for Kentucky. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we were just dealing with a whole lot of different issues, and that's when I kind of say we're running out of that water. We're having guys kind of start having some issues, and we're trying to address it. And now. Yeah, we're just trying to. We're just trying to get back to where we can start reevaluating our situation.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. And, you know, I grew up in California, so I don't really understand humidity, but. But you guys have a pretty good handle on making rain fall sideways in the air on a hot day from what I've seen. Okay, so FBI takes over the scene. They secure it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. Basically, you hand off that scene to them, and we kind of give them just the down and dirty on what happened. And then also kind of, hey, we're. We're gonna go get some shut eye, and then we will come back and relieve you guys, and then we'll just kind of get our game plan for day two. So, unfortunately, our day isn't over. We've got our CERT investigation to do, as well, just because of the officer involved shooting. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we basically all regroup. We actually go to the original staging area that we had that had a. There was an office building there we could utilize, and then that's where we go. And they actually take our pictures. That's when they take pictures of the guns. Actually, anybody that was involved in that shooting, you count all your rounds. Actually, they do. The whole team, but they count all our rounds that we had on us. And then they actually take those rifles that were used in that first office involved shooting. So now the four guys that were involved no longer have their primary hk 416 and suppressors.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. So we started off with not enough resources, and we are continuing to lose them as the day goes on.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. Yeah. With that giant team we have known. But, yeah, we're doing what we can.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>It just keeps getting worse. Okay, so you guys go through the investigation, hopefully go home, get some sleep. When does this thing that you're basically just holding security overnight? Right? Nobody's nobody's hunting the guy. You, you just kind of lock down the scene as best you can, trying to just neutralize it overnight so he hopefully doesn't escape your containment.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes. Correct. And, yeah, we were, we weren't more or less, yeah, we were not actively searching for him at this point. Yeah, we're just holding basically containment and security on that original scene. And the game plan at this point was, hey, we're going to get some shut eye. We'll get some rest. We'll be right back out here first thing in the morning. We'll relieve FBI SWAT, and then we'll hold security while CERT does their investigation, get this other guy off the mountain. And, hey, we'll re evaluate, kind of catch this guy later. Hopefully, he gets pinned up. Hopefully just let the intel do its work at that point. So, I mean, that was the plan.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And what happened?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>We go back to the hotel. Eventually everybody gets back there with us after FBI shows up. So we relieve that scene to them. Obviously, a lot of the road units and stuff, they stay on scene, but we get back to the hotel, get some rest, and the next morning, we had a couple SRT members that weren't involved in the original incident. They start going to the scene and they're going to relieve FBI as they're actually showing up on scene and kind of on the road. They meet FBI SWAT coming down the hill as they're kind of coming up. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So there's a little bit of a panic button being pressed because now we're worried about, hey, containment. Where's that security element at? And basically, it was just as a miscommunication on our part, and we take full responsibility for that. But I think we had a couple, we had a couple canine units. Troopers had worked their way up the hill as well because they were going to be part of that relief. And as soon as they got there, FBI thought it was okay for them to come off the hill. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And so at this point, hey, we're kind of scrambling just a little bit. Not a giant issue, but we were kind of worried, hey, we don't want two canine guys up there by themselves. So those guys are scrambling to get back up on the hill and try to basically provide that security.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So the team gets back on the hill. Got a dog, boy, got two dogs now on the hill. They have the Ken and handlers have the dogs with them.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes, they do. Yep. And then we've got basically. So now we've, we've got that containment secure now. And there wasn't an issue, thankfully, no problem. But now we've got CERT involved, and they're actually standing around just doing their investigation. So we strategically set up guys around that perimeter, and they're basically just holding it while CERT does their thing.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. Provide physical security to this, to the crime scene, basically.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Exactly.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. So they CERT, sir, gets in there, they do their work, and what happens next?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>One of the members, Heath, I'm not sure if you were on that hillside at that point. I'll let you just go ahead and talk about that.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So we show up the second day. We meet our canine units from post level, and it's half the team is on the hill. This morning, half the team is getting breakfast, resting, and while we are setting up 360 security for our CERT team to be able to preserve evidence, the male that had ran the first day comes walking back from the second tent towards the first tent, and one of our perimeter units challenges him. At that point, he doesn't exchange any gunfire. He immediately turns around and runs the way we were looking, to the left, which would be downhill from our current position.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So he's obviously, he's come back to his house, basically coming back to his tent in the woods, I guess, assuming you guys had left or something. You challenge him, and he just turns and runs?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Yep. Correct. Like, and when I say challenge, the perimeter unit did a great job using cover concealment. And when he got close enough, he challenged him by saying state police. And then he just turned around and. And ran.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And ran down the hill.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Correct.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So is he running towards the houses?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>He's running actually towards the uncle's house.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. Okay. I'm starting to build a picture in my brain. All right, so then what do those team members do when he takes off?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So after we hear that challenge and it's communicated on the radio, we ended up getting in a line just for fields of fire, and we just held. We saw the last known that we saw him, and then we communicated that to the other half. The team that was eating breakfast at that point. That's when they were launched and drove from their hotel to our location.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And they get there and do what?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So they set up at the uncle's house and decide to infill behind the uncle's house on a fourler trail back to our location to try to possibly flush a suspect or locate the suspect, because that was the avenue of his exfil.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. How are they going to. I mean, how are you guys deconflicting fields of fire at this point. Like, this whole thing just seems like a three dimensional nightmare as far as, you know, uphill, downhill houses. Like, the deconfliction of fields of fire just sounds terrifying to me.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>The good thing about this lay the land is there is a lot of elevation change. So if they did encounter him on that hillside, we would be protected by our terrain.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>And likewise for the team on top of the hill, if we encountered him on a flat, then it would be above the other team.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. Okay. Okay.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And basically, when, obviously, I was one of the guys that was back eating breakfast there and just basically everybody recovering. So, yeah, we scramble. And basically, it's another kind of all hands on deck scenario. And that was command staff like, hey, even though you guys have been in this incident the day prior, we need all the bodies we can get. We just encountered the guy again. So that was just decision that was made at that moment to pull the four.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Even the four shooters.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yes, correct. And it's just a manpower thing.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. Ultimately, you're. You're putting the other nine guys at great risk if you leave four people out.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>So, yeah, a great decision by them. So.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>But they don't have rifles.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>But we do not have our primary HK-416. So now those four guys are pulling out the mp seven s, and they no longer have a suppressor. So we had weapons, and we were. And those are. Those are great firearms. But, yeah, we infer that wooded terrain maybe not the best option, but we. We did the best we could and dealt those cars were just dealt a – That way. So we end up starting there, like Erra said, right behind that uncle's house. And our game plan was just kind of trying to backtrack and try to encounter the suspect hiding or in that position of that tackle position, trying to wait for the other guys to push towards him. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we were just hoping that maybe we would have. We would kind of cut him off as he was coming back to the house or whatnot. So that was kind of the game plan on why we decided to go that route. But that was also part of the issue because we were actually starting to encounter all these other fortified fighting positions. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So that's when we start seeing, hey, well, there's another tent. Now we've got to deal with that then. Now there's this. This. A bunch of rocks stacked up, man made. Obviously, we got to clear that spot. So. And we had a canine with us, and we'll get to that later as well. But the canine wasn't a usual handler and dog that we dealt with. We had used him in the past, but, yeah, he hasn't done a lot of work like that.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>He's patrol dog.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Apprehension dog or tracking dog?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Apprehension.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Okay.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, apprehension. So we were just kind of keeping him back in case we did encounter that, that runner scenario or just needed to send him on that on if he was hiding kind of thing. But so we're working our way back, and the next thing we know is we have a rifle laying right in the middle of a four wheeler trail. And that was really the odd thing. Two is we already knew the four wheeler had came up this four wheeler trail earlier or the day prior, but now we have a. It ended up being a 22 rifle scoped rifle, and it was laying just perfectly placed right over the trail, the four wheeler trail. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So now we're stepping back again, thinking, okay, well, he's drawing us in. He's wanting us to walk up to this rifle just for an ambush. So we kind of backtrack again, get a game plan on how to handle this, and we kind of end up working a different way to get around that and basically realize that, hey, it's secure. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And really kind of, to this day, we don't know why the rifle was placed that way. I don't know if it was a way of knowing for him that nobody was back in that area or had been back that trail because they would have picked up the rifle. I don't know if that was a way of him just knowing that nobody was up in the tent. So I don't know if he placed that there, the date prior or if he just lost it. We don't really know.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, or is he laying guns? You know, that'd be my concern, is he's laying guns, you know, from fighting position to fighting position, so he can move to location to location.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. And that very well could have been his option or his intentions as well.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. Okay, so when do you next encounter him?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Okay, so we actually. All right, we do our deconfliction process. We know we're actually starting to circle back and. And kind of get on that blue on blue area. So we basically deconflict that the best we can as we're coming back on each other. And then once we do link up, that's when we decide that we're going to go to that last known area and basically conduct our track.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So now that we have all of our guys back, we have a last known that's marked visually and with a GPS coordinate. We move to that location and set up a tracking formation. I'm actually in the tracking formation, and as we are getting the tracking formation set up, I'm scanning and I visually locate the suspect in a bunch of downed trees. We've got a process to that. And when I realize that people are not quite set up yet, I go ahead and just challenge the suspect. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And at that point, he gets up and starts running away from us towards the uncle's house, his house, his mom and dad's house, and the rest of the post personnel. All of our support capacity is all downhill from us, and that's where he's going.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Oh, boy!</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And just to add to that they found that last, that last known, as I keep saying, and, and where he had kind of slid down that hill and from that point where they actually made contact was probably only, was it 2030 yards from that last gnome, is that correct? So he kind of bailed off out of sight and he had pretty quick, so he didn't go very far, at least just for, to paint that picture.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. Got it. So he's now popped up again. He's running. When do you see him again? What happens next?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So we end up chasing him. We pursue him, but with that thick of a woods, down trees, we have a lot of different little small creeks flowing down. It's not conducive for in a foot pursuit, especially, especially with tactical gear.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, it doesn't sound like foot pursuit ground.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So to paint the picture, half the team is in a tracking formation. Thankfully to our team leader at the time, he did a good job taking care of his guys and the guys that were involved. The first day, he tried to stick them in a location that they could do more of a security position for the evidence of the first days incident. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Yeah, so they're, they're kind of put up there. Hopefully, they won't get into anything else. But as the situation unfolds, this guy circles backs and we're on the lower shelf and those guys are on the upper shelf. So we're running parallel with each other again. So as that formation moves into a tactical l, the people that are up doing the security position start running parallel with the suspect and us. So we're able to have that tactical.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And before we jump ahead too much, as I was talking about, hey, this, the canine, the handler we were utilizing at the time hasn't really operated with us. And this whole backtrack is, which we had just done, obviously wasn't a quick process either. So we're talking several hours in that, in that August heat again. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So they actually had sent the canine after that fleeing male. And just a note for the listener is he wasn't armed. He didn't have anything in his hands. That's why we did what we did. And we didn't, we weren't running after this guy, but we were pursuing him, trying to keep him just in sight. That's kind of what you're just having to do in that situation. The canine was deployed and he did not engage the suspect. He just ran beside him. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So now we've got a dog on the loose that did not engage our suspect. And now this suspect is running downhill kind of towards his residence, towards his uncle's residence and to those other containment troopers, which we do not have comms with. So we're on a different channel, I guess our team is, and the road troopers are on their own channel. So at this point, they just know and they hear the holler and all that, but they really don't know what we're doing on top of the hill.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And so you've got an armed suspect. I mean, you don't, haven't seen a gun in his hand right now, but we know he's armed, closing on an unsuspecting population of perimeter officers.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. And it was pretty shortly after that initial contact that he's actually comes out of the woods there and he is challenged by the troopers. So they actually have visual of him. And as soon as he's challenged by them, he shoots back up into the woods. They didn't pursue. They did a great job. They knew their role and so they just held what they had and they didn't go chasing after him. And that led our guys kind of continue to push towards that last known once again. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So at this point, everybody's lost visual of our fleeing suspect. And we're just basically now trying to slowly work through the area and hopefully, hopefully identify the guy and make contact once again. And that's when your guys, your two guys that were on top of the hill that are paralleling and kind of watching, watching this play out below them. They get to a point to where they can actually see mom and dad's house. And we can tell that there's actually troopers behind mom and dads as well. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we're kind of trying to see that area. We're like, hey, he hasn't gone this far because they probably would have challenged him or saw him at this point as well. He hasn't came uphill and got high ground on us because we would have seen him, we would have been able to challenge him. And so that's when we made a decision to just drop over that hillside just a little bit, to kind of see down into that little. That little valley area. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And as soon as we did, it wasn't just a few seconds, and we actually identified the guy laying kind of in a fetal position, kind of tucked up under a bunch of foliage, and he kind of stuck out like that sore thumb just because he didn't have a shirt on. He just had those khaki pants and all that green, green foliage. So immediately we picked him up, and then it actually worked out really well because we actually noticed a tattoo on his shoulder. And that was the same tattoo we knew from our brief and all our intel. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we knew, hey, this is our guy. It wasn't the uncle that we didn't know where he was at. We were actually able at that point, hey, this is our guy. We've idd him, and that's just kind of one of those things. It was just why we thought of that or whatever, I don't know, but we were actually able to ideem, so that worked out really well.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>And what do you do? You guys challenge him?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, we – There was two of us. So immediately we wait for support, and me and him actually start slowly working our way down towards him, utilizing cover of the biggest tree, I guess you could say that we had. And at this time, he's not. He doesn't know we're around, so we're trying to just maintain that noise discipline and just move towards him. And as soon as we get to about the tree, that last point of concealment, I guess you could say he actually kind of is laying on his side, facing us. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So we're a little bit uphill above him, but we can see his chest. We can see he's kind of laying fetal towards us, I guess you could say. And he raises his heads up and makes eye contact with us. So as soon as we know the gig's up, he's made the eye contact, we immediately challenge him. Hey, Kentucky state police. Show me your hands. Show me your hands. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>At the time, he had the hands, which he didn't have anything in them for what we could tell, but they were kind of together at his waist. And then he goes, as he's looking at us, he doesn't verbalize anything, doesn't have any motion whatsoever. And then he just slowly starts reaching over his right side. Behind his back. And that's when we decided to engage him to eliminate that threat.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>You have a gun?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>He did not have a gun. No. We got down there to him. Obviously, we held what we had on high ground as that other element pushed towards him, kind of maintaining that good tactical well. And once we got up there and secured him, he didn't have a pistol, but he did have a – Where he was reaching, he did have a holster. So I'm not sure if he had just lost it when he's running or if he thought he still had it or if he was kind of won that suicide by cop. I mean, at this point.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, at that point, who knows, right? It's so far down the road that, you know, he had plenty of time to put his hands up and obviously made a conscious choice that that wasn't going to happen. That's a h*** of a story. How. I mean, how's it in for you guys? Obviously, it's suspect now. Secure. I'm going to guess there's probably more searching that's going to take place and everything else, but how does your day wrap after that?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>At this point, I think all of us are just. Obviously, it's a crazy few hours there. I think we're a little relieved. Number one, knowing that we've got our guy. And he did match the same description as what we had on the day one. But we also knew that we had an uncle missing from the other house. And then we had to just deal with that whole investigation with CERT and deal with the evidence and that kind of process. The day's not over, and we actually just pretty much just relieved from the scene and let SIRT come in and basically take over that scene at that point.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Got it. So, guys, let's walk through lessons learned here. And obviously, it's a profound event. A lot of moving parts here. Talk to me about what went right, what went wrong. Give me your kind of after action view of the lessons learned.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah. And I'll just – With that after action, it's just. It's so important that you actually sit down and have an honest after action with your guys. There are so many moving parts. We were so short handed on top of that, it just being insanely difficult terrain and all that. You gotta have that conversation. And sometimes it's tough, right? Sometimes it's not what you want to hear, but you just have to have that conversation with your guys. And thankfully, we've our senior guys and our TLs and ATLs, they've always done a really good job with just kind of humbling each one of us. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But when it just gets down to it, I mean, there's always things you did right and there's always things you did wrong. It's just a matter of admitting those issues. And just to go just through some of the pros, just to start, is kind of our intel gathering. And it's kind of funny wrapping around to that now is because the guy that actually got our, all our intel package together from post, from the get go, saw how we operated and he did such a good job with that. He's actually on our team now. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So, I mean, if you look at that now, I mean, he saw how we operated. We got a firsthand of what kind of guy he was and what kind of detective and package he put together for us. And now he's on our team. So it's kind of cool. But they're not always going to be right with their intel packages. So it's important for your guys to do their due diligence on their end too, and just try to check off those boxes. It's not that you're the, you don't trust those guys. It's just, hey, we're going into it too. We're going to see if we can find a hole, you know, something you didn't think of. And it was good for us, so that was really good. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And then we didn't mention it in the podcast, but I got on here like a sixth sense, and it just goes back to trusting your gut. We had one of our guys that was one of our main guys doing the plan, doing the brief. And he sat back with me one day and was like, man, I don't know what it is. I just don't feel good about it. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And this was prior to any of it, he just said, for whatever reason, I've got a gut feeling that it's not, it's not going to go as we want. It's not good. I don't know why. And it's just, it's that 6th sense, but it's don't disregard that for fear. It's trust it, share it, and it kind of gets everybody else. Hey, maybe we need to be on our toes a little more on this guy. Maybe it's, maybe there is more to it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>So when he said that, you guys leaned into it and took a deeper look.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Yeah.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And he was a senior guy, been on the team for 12, 13 years, had seen a lot, right? So coming from him, you took notice, right. It was kind of like, that's odd for him to say that. And whatever it was that made him have that feeling he was right. He was right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, no kidding. And then, like, decentralized command, you've probably heard Jocko or somebody talking like that kind of stuff. It's basically that you're all. All of our operators have that tactical authority to act, but your thinkers first and your shooter's second. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So when those two guys that were on top of the hill made that decision on their own to, hey, we're going to start paralleling these guys at the end, on that second day, that wasn't a decision that somebody told them to go do that. It was, hey, we can't let this guy get. Get high ground on us. They. We've got actually control this. So that was just a movement they made on their own, and it ended up working out and they ended up having to be the guys that made the last shot. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>But we didn't have anybody telling them that we just trusted, hey, they're going to do what they need to do and go on. And that's just. It's a testament to our team, I think, in the way we train and the guys we're actually bringing onto the team, and we just trust them. We trust that you're going to make the right decision.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, that's really smart.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And just land NAV and communication. We're really good in rural operations, but that's our bread and butter as we talked. So just understanding those maps and kind of pinpointing, hey, this is probably one of the only few places on this mountainside that he could have a tent or he could have a little flat spot to have an area he's living in. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And looking back, yeah, we were pretty accurate on it. Like, we were pretty close. It was a lot of ground to cover. Yes. But at the end of the day, by doing that and understanding those topical maps and discussing that stuff through Rouhaups training and that kind of thing and showing that stuff, I mean, it really helped us out. And then the communication aspect is that's a whole lot going on. And thankfully it worked out.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah. I think one of the things that you said that is really troubling is that the QRT can't talk to the obs who are able to reach the team. But because of the terrain, I think it's very easy to forget that terrain can literally take away your ability to communicate. And so I think the fact that you guys had coordinated on the front end and had a pretty clear idea how you were going to move. Probably decreased the likelihood of you ended up on a blue. On blue, you know, where your guys got downrange of you or uprange of you.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, no doubt. And just to continue on that, just uniforms and camo. I mean, just knowing what environment you're going to be operating in. So it kind of goes back to the, hey, though, the black tactical gear. That's not always the best option. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And unfortunately, some of these departments, even in the city, get stuck having to utilize that equipment because that's all they got. But then they're in a wooded area that just so happens to be a couple acres next to a urban environment. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So, I mean, but that's just kind of one of the things that, like I said, it's just we're really good at knowing what to use and what to wear and that kind of environment, and then just preparation. You're training in those positions, in those environments, and then your physical fitness, just being able to do so. It's a long day. You're packing all kinds of gear up and down this mountain, and… </p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>It's hot. </p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>It's a lot, and it's hot, and it's, you got the humidity to deal with, and you got all those other factors, and unfortunately, you're just gonna, if your physical fitness is bad, you're gonna go down. It's just your stress levels and everything is just gonna fall back on you.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Well, if nothing else, I mean, as you start to fatigue, your decision making is gonna begin to fail, too.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And just always I got on there, just always, like, improving your positions throughout that encounter. We were always kind of that shoot, move, communicate kind of thing. And you're always looking for a better position to be in to where you're a better teammate. Right? </p> <p style=’color:white;’>You're better support for your guys, or you're in a different position or different angles to where you can see more, communicate more, whatever you need to do, but it's just, don't get stuck in the mud. Always be willing to move and just be ready to evolve with the situation as you see it.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Talk to me about info, like the way that you guys are gathering a lot of information. How are you disseminating it? What are the lessons learned from the – As you were getting information, how you're sharing it within the team?</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Thankfully, we had a very senior heavy team at the time, and they've planned a lot of ops. We disseminate information on a brief, primarily, but as we get information through our scouts. That is always passed up and down the chain to those that are going to be in different roles. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>The briefs are very, very long, very deep, and if we have questions, we are going to get answers. If we have questions that need to be answered, we're not going to pull the trigger on operation until we get those answers. And we disseminated that information very clearly the night before.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And I'll just add to that, like on that communication aspect is you just, there was some miscommunication, number one, with us, an SRT and FBI. And that's kind of like that was, that's on us. That was completely ours. We just didn't give, we didn't give those guys a very good game plan for day two and they were doing exactly what they thought they needed to and end up. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>We kind of left that area unsecure for just a minute with some guys that, with some canine guys that just weren't capable probably if there was a situation was to rise. But it's kind of that communication on that and then it's also goes into like our communication on just our land NAV in general and being able to communicate. Hey, this is the GPS coordinate we're given on a location. Hey, we need you here because this is where our situation is at now. And we had some issues there. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Basically when we were trying to link back up with that first woods team on day one, a GPS coordinate was sentence via the iPhone. Well, it wasn't completely accurate and it gave us, it took us a little longer to find them because they weren't coming directly from like a Garmin device.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Just because the difference in a resolution between an iPhone nav and a Garmin now.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Correct. And when you're dealing with a large wooded area with lots of foliage.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, yeah.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And you don't have that direct line of sight anymore. That little bit of difference can, I mean, it could have threw us on top of the target. It could have threw us in some bad spots. But it's just something that we know that, hey, if you're going to use some type of GPS coordinates to relay that kind of stuff, make sure you're using either the same device or something more accurate that's actually built for that other than just your phone, that's kind of jumping all over the place.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. What are kind of give me the kind of cons, negative lessons learned, things that you maybe that drove changes of behavior after the, after the event.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So we discovered a few on the issues with the GPS devices, the differences, and then the miscommunication with FBI. We brought up some in the start of the podcast that some of the guys were planning on a short operation. So instead of packing their MVGs, we had to push a little bit the issue with daylight and start making some changes there. And then preparation. We're talking really hot days, really humid days. We expected a shorter operation. So we did take water and food, but didn't take quite enough. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So you started to see some guys get dehydrated, exhausted, and we're already a low man team, so we don't have a lot of support. So that's a couple of the cons. The other cons on the second day, the guys that were in the officer involved shooting the first day had their rifles taken from them with their suppressors. So that was a huge issue in the second day shooting, because when we heard the shots, we couldn't see our guys. But it said it was all unsuppressed gunfire.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Oh, boy!</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>So our thought was – that was just coming from our suspect only where. And that's where we learned that we need to get suppressors for not only our 416s, but also our mp seven. So we've made that adjustment.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Now I have nothing else. Just to be able to differentiate between you and suspect fire. That's a really good point.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Some other things that we have learned with the cons is now we have a dedicated team dog that is full time to our team. One of the operator runs the dogs, he takes care of the dogs, he trains with the dogs. But we've also added to that four post level guys that are training with SRT. And if we have an operation that we need an extra dog, one of those four is coming with us. So we've added that capability. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>Obviously, the lack of manpower in general is always going to be an issue. So we're trying to bump those numbers up. aircraft, they're able to get aircraft, another camera on another bird, the exact same type. So now we have, they can switch out Hilos in a long, lengthy operation. Two pilots can fly in flock for a couple hours, and then that they can switch out while they're refueling, resting, so, so on and so forth.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>And I would add to that, too, is kind of that con is just understanding what you're expecting out of your guys, and especially out of guys that aren't used to training with you. And that's kind of what we did to the canine. It was no fault of his own or his dogs. We kind of set him up for failure and we expected something out of him that he had never put himself in or we had never exposed him to. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So when that dog failed, it wasn't the dog's fault or the canine handlers. We just pushed the limit and didn't step back and, like, take into consideration, like, his thought process on, hey, can you do this? Are you, are you, are you comfortable doing this? And that kind of thing? So when that all unfolded, it was kind of like, yeah, that was dumb. That dog had been out here in the heat for hours. We were just expecting too much. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>And that's kind of the FBI thing is we just, we didn't have communicate well and it wasn't a problem. Thank goodness. But that was our fault. We didn't communicate that. Hey, we were. The tech guys are going to really attack guys and it just kind of, it just fell on us and we take full responsibility for that. That was – Could have went bad, but it didn't, thankfully.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Jon Becker: </strong>Yeah, fortunately, no, I mean, there's a hundred ways this op could have gone bad, and you guys managed to pull a very successful operation out of what should have been extremely ugly situation. And, you know, you guys should be really proud of your team for this because this is a hard operation and, you know, nothing but respect for what you guys did. </p> <p style=’color:white;’>So, guys, thank you so much for doing this with me, you know, fantastic! And I'm glad everything turned out.</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Heath Ayers: </strong>Appreciate for having us!</p> <p style=’color:white;’><strong>Logan Smith: </strong>Yeah, thanks, Jon! Appreciate it!</p> <p style=’color:white;’></p> |