Description

In this episode, Jon sits down with Dr. Nathalie Pattyn, whose unique background spans medicine, psychology, research, and military operations. Dr. Pattyn discusses her unconventional career path from aspiring astronaut to emergency physician to tactical performance researcher, including her work in extreme environments like Antarctica and space research.

The conversation explores how scientific principles can improve tactical performance for law enforcement teams. Dr. Pattyn shares practical insights on decision-making under pressure, stress management, and optimizing human performance in high-stakes situations—essential knowledge for SWAT teams and tactical operators seeking evidence-based approaches to enhance their operational effectiveness.

 

Episode Information

Episode Number: Season 06, Episode 08 (Episode 64)

Episode Title: Improving Tactical Performance with Science

Guest(s): Dr Nathalie Pattyn

Air Date: December 10, 2025

Episode Length: 1:52:14

 

Guest Information

Dr Nathalie Pattyn

 

Topics Covered

[00:03:09] Dr. Pattyn’s Background and Career Path

Introduction to guest’s military and scientific background.

[00:05:52] Military Academy Decision and Goals

Why she chose military service and her objectives.

[00:08:45] Role as Military Physician

Dual responsibilities as doctor and gatekeeper for pilots.

[00:10:43] Aviation Medicine and Performance Research

Psychophysiological measurements in astronauts and fighter pilots.

[00:13:03] Transition to Tactical Operations

Shift from aviation to tactical performance research.

[00:15:29] Over-tasked and Under-resourced Units

Challenges facing modern tactical operators and organizations.

[00:20:49] Sustainable Performance vs Peak Performance

Why tactical operators need endurance, not Formula One approaches.

[00:29:55] Robustness vs Resilience Concepts

Foundation layer of robustness enables better resilience capacity.

[00:33:39] Stress Response and Recovery Cycles

How stress reactions work and importance of deactivation.

[00:41:36] Fatigue and Performance Impairment

People can’t accurately judge their own fatigue levels.

[00:46:39] Sleep Quality vs Sleep Tracking

Sleep apnea example shows tracking doesn’t equal quality.

[00:51:37] Rest During Wake Time

Incorporating rest periods is crucial for better sleep.

[01:02:32] Individual vs Organizational Responsibility

Systemic problems require organizational, not just individual solutions.

[01:09:05] Being the Whistleblower

Leadership responsibility to address unsafe operational conditions.

[01:25:49] Performance vs Health Disconnect

People can perform while unhealthy in suffering environments.

[01:47:09] Training Across Threat Spectrum

Need to practice at various intensity levels, not just comfort zones.

Description

In September of 2021 a suspect involved in a carjacking and attempted homicide led police in a vehicle pursuit that ended in a car crash in Farmington Utah. The suspect fled on foot across Interstate 15 into a residential neighborhood prompting patrol officers to establish a perimeter and begin a search with a K9 unit. During the search a single gunshot was heard, South Davis Metropolitan SWAT and North Davis Metropolitan SWAT were both activated to conduct a house-to-house search. Operators discovered a bullet hole in a residence window, and shortly after, a male exited nearby home in a vehicle. He was stopped and informed operators that his family was being held hostage and that the suspect had sent him to check for police. As operators moved toward the residence, a juvenile female escaped through a window. Debriefing the father and daughter, it became clear that three more hostages remained inside the home with an armed suspect. Negotiated side and a handgun was recovered next to his body.

My guest today is Lieutenant Andrew Smith. Andrew began his law enforcement career with the Utah Highway Patrol in 2008. In 2011, he left the highway and began working for the West Bountiful Police Department. He joined the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team in 2012 and eventually moved to the Bountiful City Police Department in 2013, where he worked his way through various assignments and promoted to the rank of lieutenant and team commander of the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team. Anders held numerous leadership positions in the department, including FTO, lead scout, entry team member, and assistant team leader, and is currently the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team commander. He’s been honored with numerous unit citations as a member of the police department and SWAT team, including his involvement in two hostage rescue operations and two Bountiful City Police Department chief stars, one of which was for his response to an active shooter at a local junior high.

Episode Information
Episode Number: Season 06, Episode 06 (Episode 63)
Episode Title: Barricade Erupts into Urgent HRT When Freed Victim Returns to Hostage Taker
Guests: Joel Anderson and Bob Shaw
Air Date: November 19, 2025
Episode Length: 1:26:20

Guest Information
Joel Anderson – Tactical Commander, Washington State Patrol SWAT Team; Vice President of Washington State Tactical Officers Association
Bob Shaw – Patrol Sergeant, Pierce County Sheriff’s Department SWAT Team; Washington State Tactical Officers Association Cadre Member

Topics Covered
[00:03:04] Introduction and Team Overview — Pierce County and Washington State Patrol SWAT team structures and capabilities.

[00:08:11] The Homicide Investigation — Three-month investigation into August 2024 homicide and tracking suspect to two locations.

[00:11:40] Surveillance and Target Identification — Girlfriend drives suspect from Portland to Bremerton and opens garage.

[00:14:39] Rolling In and Initial Contact — Deploying armor with announcements; girlfriend insists suspect isn’t there.

[00:15:42] Establishing Containment — Phone ping confirms suspect still present despite denial.

[00:20:00] Discovering the Vehicle Barricade — Suspect barricaded in car inside hoarded garage.

[00:32:30] Chemical Munitions and Tactical Options — Gas deployment and planning to extract vehicle with armor.

[00:45:00] Vehicle Extraction Attempt — Pulling vehicle from garage while containing suspect.

[00:56:49] Seven-Hour Barricade Becomes Hostage Situation — Girlfriend returns; suspect takes her hostage.

[01:02:00] Shift to Hostage Rescue — Teams rapidly pivot to immediate HRT.

[01:10:00] Dynamic Entry and Rescue — Combined teams enter confined garage to rescue hostage and apprehend suspect.

[01:20:00] Lessons Learned — Multi-agency coordination and rapid transitions between mission types.

 

Contact Info

Lt Andrew Smith – asmith@bountiful.gov

 

Books

Legacy by James Kerr – ISBN-13: 978-1472103536

Description

In September of 2021 a suspect involved in a carjacking and attempted homicide led police in a vehicle pursuit that ended in a car crash in Farmington Utah. The suspect fled on foot across Interstate 15 into a residential neighborhood prompting patrol officers to establish a perimeter and begin a search with a K9 unit. During the search a single gunshot was heard, South Davis Metropolitan SWAT and North Davis Metropolitan SWAT were both activated to conduct a house -to-house search. Operators discovered a bullet hole in a residence window, and shortly after, a male exited nearby home in a vehicle. He was stopped and informed operators that his family was being held hostage and that the suspect had sent him to check for police. As operators moved toward the residence, a juvenile female escaped through a window. Debriefing the father and daughter, it became clear that three more hostages remained inside the home with an armed suspect. Negotiated side and a handgun was recovered next to his body. My guest today is Lieutenant Andrew Smith. Andrew began his law enforcement career with the Utah Highway Patrol in 2008. In 2011, he left the highway and began working for the West Bountiful Police Department. He joined the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team in 2012 and eventually moved to the Bountiful City Police Department in 2013, where he worked his way through various assignments and promoted to the rank of lieutenant and team commander of the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team. Anders held numerous leadership positions in the department, including FTO, lead scout, entry team member, and assistant team leader, and is currently the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team commander. He’s been honored with numerous unit citations as a member of the police department and SWAT team, including his involvement in two hostage rescue operations and two Bountiful City Police Department chief stars, one of which was for his response to an active shooter at a local junior high.

Contact Info

Lt Andrew Smith – asmith@bountiful.gov

Books

Legacy by James Kerr – ISBN-13 – 978-1472103536

Description

My guest today is Dr. Jenny Prohaska, a clinical psychologist who has spent her career on the front lines of trauma and high-stakes performance. Jenny trained in neuro -rehabilitation psychology at the University of Kansas Medical Center, working with patients and staff in trauma, ICU, and burn units, where she built her expertise in how the brain and body adapt to extreme stress. For more than a decade, Jenny has brought that expertise into policing and tactical operations. She’s force science certified and consults on more than 30 officer -involved shootings a year, as well as hundreds of other critical incidents. Jenny’s conducted thousands of pre-hire psychological evaluations, giving her deep expertise in what makes officers and teams thrive or deteriorate under pressure. She’s also built and trained more than two dozen peer support teams across the country and today consults for more than 50 public safety agencies. Jenny’s also a sought-after speaker for national organizations. She’s a founder of tactical longevity, a first -of -its -kind, pre-incident anti -fragility training framework designed to prepare officers and tactical teams to withstand the cumulative stress of their job. I’m excited to talk to Jenny because I’ve been a fan of her work for a number of years, and I believe that antifragility and prehabilitation programs promoting this concept of tactical longevity and talking about it and teaching.

Links

Tactical Longevity | Anti-Fragility Training

Books

What Happened to You? Bruce D. Perry and Oprah Winfrey – ISBN-13 – 978-1250223180