Episode 40 Transcript
Episode 40 – The History of SWAT in Texas and TTPOA
Jon Becker: The evolution of special tactics in the United States is a complicated story whose roots lie in the violent social and political environment of the late 1960s. Highly unusual and televised events like the Texas Tower Sniper in 1966 and the Munich massacre in 1972 created the need to develop specialized units to respond to events that were beyond the capabilities of normal patrol officers.
While Southern California often receives most of the credit for the development of special tactics because of the efforts of LAPD D-Platoon and LASD, it's important to understand that the West coast was not the only one who were looking at special tactics.
In fact, by the early 1980s, there were numerous regions who were all following parallel paths of development, albeit in different stages. In these regions, tactical associations began to form that were focused on sharing information and training among agencies.
One of these was the Texas Tactical Police Officers association, or TTPOA, which was formed in 1984 and this year is celebrating its 40th anniversary. As such, it seemed like a perfect time for us to do an episode on the history and evolution of SWAT in Texas, as well as the history and impact of the TTPOA.
My guests today are three influential figures in TTPOA.
Lieutenant Dan Colosanto is the current president of TTPOA. Dan is a 30 year veteran of the Garland Police Department, with 28 of those years spent on the SWAT team. Dan has worked in patrol, narcotics and SWAT and is a graduate of the US Military Academy at West Point and an army veteran.
In February of 2021, Dan earned a master's degree in homeland security with a concentration on counterterrorism for the American military university. Dan was the SWAT team leader during the May 3rd, 2015 ISIS inspired terrorist attack in Garland, Texas. Dan also serves on the intelligence and terrorism chair for the NTOA.
Paul Ford has experience spanning both the government and private sectors. Paul's diverse roles include being a police officer, instructor, writer, publisher, developer of police training, and sales and marketing executive. Paul began his law enforcement career in 1985, assuming roles in patrol, SWAT and as a detective. Paul spent almost a decade on the Austin, Texas SWAT team, serving as the unit's training coordinator and team leader. He's the recipient of more than 60 commendations, including three for meritorious conduct.
And in the 1990s, Paul played a pivotal role in reshaping and expanding TTPOA, where he served as a secretary, vice president, and editor of Command magazine. His dedication earned him the association's prestigious, Excellent award in 1999 and in 2001, Paul transitioned to the private sector where he has held positions at defense technology and is currently the vice president of sales and marketing for CSI. Known through their brands, CTS and pen arms.
Sandy Wall is a true legend in Texas tactical community. Sandy spent 28 years with the Houston, Texas Police Department, 22 of which were on Houston SWAT. Sandy is a recipient of the TTPOA Excellence Award and the TTPOA Lifetime Achievement Award and the National Police Association's top cop for the state of Texas. He has also received the Houston Police Department chief's commendation for valor and the Officer of the year award.
Sandy has served three times as the president of TTPOA. He's also written two books, invented the wall banger system, and has taught and testified as an expert all over the United States. This is a really enlightening discussion and I hope that you enjoy our conversation about TTPOA.
My name is John Becker.
For the past four decades, I've dedicated my life to protecting tactical operators. During this time, I've worked with many of the world's top law enforcement and military units. As a result, I've had the privilege of working with the amazing leaders who take teams into the world's most dangerous situations.
The goal of this podcast is to share their stories in hopes of making us all better leaders, better thinkers, and better people. Welcome to The Debrief!
Guys, thanks so much for being here today! I'm excited to have this conversation!
Sandy Wall: Great to be here!
Paul Ford: Thanks for having us!
Dan Colosanto: Thanks for having me!
Jon Becker: So, you know, I set the environment in the intro, but, you know, 66, Charles Witten climbs the tower at the University of Texas and we, you know, starts the active shooter craze. 72, we have the, you know, the Munich massacre at the Olympic Games. And it kind of sets an environment where special tactics teams start developing all over the world. In Texas, Houston SWAT forms in 74, if I'm remembering correctly, Sandy?
Sandy Wall: That's correct.
Jon Becker: Kind of set the, set the early environment for me. What was that like? Because a lot of you guys got, well, you got there pretty early. What was it like as this is evolving?
Sandy Wall: Well, I had the luxury of knowing several of the original team members. In fact, we have an alumni association and February 10, we will bring all of the surviving members of the original 1970, 14 together. And it's going to be a big deal and we're going to, we're going to celebrate those guys. But having talked to many of them, they were picked, handpicked throughout the city, the city force at that time, there's probably about 1502 thousand officers in Houston and they were hand picked for their talents.
Most of them were Vietnam veterans. And it was just a mindset that those guys were used to combat and I. And, you know, bad situations, and they would handle it better. They put them all on an airplane and sent them to Quantico to train with the FBI. And when they came back, there were. There was 24 people picked, and that that manpower level stayed the same for years and years and years.
In fact, it's not much more. Even now, we have a relatively small team. But those guys that, when they got off the plane and I made it back downtown to the police station, there were 24 police cars, unmarked, waiting for them, brand spanking newt, and they headed up keys. It was like a super proud moment that they had a take on car and. But having said that, the. The city was all in on it, but they had to buy their own uniforms. Their weddings were bought by the city, but they had to buy their own boots and, you know, ancillary things that kind of come with it, the individual equipment. And they made some horrific mistakes right at first, but the city stuck with them.
I think they burned down at least three houses in the first two years. The most horrific event we had, an officer was shot by three escaped convicts that were holed up in an apartment over the east side of downtown. And a patrol officer tried to make the initial approach on him, and they shot and killed him. And his body was laying in the front yard, and SWAT got there and they started receiving fire, and the decision was made to use gas on them. And they, back in those days, they didn't know the difference between hot gas, meaning like riot grenades and indoor gas.
So they threw outdoor gas inside a structure and burned it to the ground. They brought it to a resolution, but the city ended up having to buy that apartment building. But it slowly evolved. Those guys weren't quickly. And by the time I came on the SWAT team in 1979, it had only been in place four years. But those guys were so squared away and had learned so much. And the things they taught me were state of the art at that time and just a credit to their ability to adapt, adjust, learn from their mistakes and improve. And as a result, the team continued to grow.
Jon Becker: So when you come on at 79, how many teams do you think there are in the state of Texas?
Sandy Wall: How many SWAT teams? Yeah, you know, I think Dallas was just getting formed. They were probably came on as 74, but at a different level. I don't think they had gotten to the position that they were at now. I would guess maybe two or three. Houston may have been the only full time, and that's what we were. When you say a full time SWAT team, a lot of people think, well, you're dedicated, swap, but you do other things. You have ancillary duties. We did. I mean, when you went to work, the first 2 hours were working out and the rest of your time on that ship was trained. We didn't have ancillary duties unless the president came into town or there was some special event, but that's all we did.
Whereas a lot of teams, they would call themselves full time SWAT, but they had to do patrol, they had to do warrant execution, they had to do different other things. And that was one of the things that was, I guess, a benefit to us in terms of being doing just one job. But as a double edged sword, if you screwed it up, we really didn't have many excuses because the city was giving us what we asked for.
Jon Becker: Yeah, I think at that point. So that's – You guys are farmed in 74, deep potatoes farmed at 71. There are probably less than a dozen full time SWAT teams in the United States in the early seventies because even agencies that were forming teams were forming counterinsurgency teams or riot teams that also did SWAT stuff.
So I think, yeah, you guys were definitely one of the earlier teams, especially earlier teams to go full time. So you get on the team in 79. So NTOA was formed in 1983. TTPOA was formed in 1984. Give me the environment, you know, as Ttpoa is formed. Talk to me about that early, those early days.
Sandy Wall: Well, I actually didn't have much personal involvement in TTPOA when his first storm formed. I got to give credit to some Dallas guys that kind of got that initiative, and they came to Houston, asked if we wanted to be part of it. Another guy on our team, the guy by the name of Paul Day, represented us and helped, I guess, you know, carve out some bylaws and some rules that the organization would operate from.
But it was one of those things that wasn't truly supported by their departments, so they had to do it in their off time and weekends. And it was just really, really difficult for guys that are carrying out a full time job, maybe raising a family, maybe working extra jobs to make ends meet, and then now they're having to devote time to this fledgling organization that's trying to get started.
So it really didn't go very far until a guy by the name of Paul Ford got involved. And he had the vision and the foresight and the leadership to see what this organization could be. And so that was a few years later, and then that's where it really took off. So for those first few years, it was just kind of bouncing around. It's kind of a neat idea, a neat concept, but wasn't a whole lot of people fully on board?
Jon Becker: Yeah, I think it took several years for NTOA to even really take a foothold, even though John and Mike had really leaned into it. It took him a few years to actually get it off the ground and really start doing training and some of that. So, Paul, you get to Austin SWAT in 1989? My memory.
Paul Ford: Yes. 89.
Jon Becker: So how long is it before you are involved in TTPOA?
Paul Ford: It's probably two or three years. I mean, I had heard about teach POa. There was a. There was a guy in the Austin SWAT team who had taken the initiative. You remember him, Sandy. His name was Dale Toler. And I think Dale was like a regional director or training coordinator. So one of our guys was involved, I think. I went to the first TTPOA conference in 1992.
I met Tom Shelton, who was the president at the time. He was editing the magazine at the time. And from there, I just steadily got more involved. Submitted some articles for the command that Tom was publishing at the time. Started going to the conferences at the same time. I had gone to an NTOA conference around 92, 93. I went to an NTOA conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and all the greats were there.
I mean, John Coleman was there, Sid Heal was there, Ron McCarthy was there. I could go on and on and it was like a moment where I was able. I can make a comparison between what I saw in the TTPOA and what I saw in the NTOA and both in, like, not just the organizations but the people. I mean, the caliber, the presence, the quantity and the quality of the information that these guys were sharing. It was a stark comparison to me of, okay, this is the TTPOA and this is the NTOA.
And kind of where we needed to be going, you know, what, the ground that. The ground that we needed to make up and catch up. Because I was, you know, I'm from Texas. I'm proud to be from Texas and I'm, you know, and I was proud to be associated with the TTPOA at the time. But it was a big difference.
Jon Becker: Yeah, I think people forget that, you know, in. In 1984, the Olympics came to California, they came to Los Angeles. And if the Munich massacre is the catalytic event that drives the development of special tactics teams, the 84 Olympics is the gasoline on the fire between La sheriff's SEB, LAPD platoon and FBI, specifically HRT and the LA office. There is a massive amount of money that gets poured onto special tactics. In southern California, you saw this very rapid evolution of tactics and skills, and you had those teams spending a lot of time with the european counterterrorism team 22, SAS, new form, GSG 9.
And I think that for a while there, the West coast got this kind of acceleration as a result of the 84 games. That didn't happen in other parts of the country. But with the advent of NTOA, I think you started to see that seeding the other regions, which is kind of exactly what you just described.
Paul Ford: Yeah, I was also able to make the connection then that, you know, about tactical community. TTPOA existed, but we really hadn't come together yet as a tactical community. And I felt like I started paying attention. I could see what was going on in California. I could see what was going on in Florida. And Florida teams also seem to be very advanced. They seem to be strict about their standards, about PT, about selection process and things like that across the board.
And I could see that the thing that California and Florida had in common were strong associations, a tactical community that grew from those associations and from there it seemed that for me that for Texas to rise, for the Texas boat to rise, that we needed to have a good tactical community as well. And we had the vehicle, we had the teachboa, you know, we had the framework for it. It just hadn't all coalesced and come together yet.
Jon Becker: Yeah, I mean, just for further historical context, 91, we have the Luby diner, Luby's diner massacre with 23 people killed and 27 injured in Texas Lubbock, if I remember correctly.
Sandy Wall: Colleen.
Jon Becker: Colleen.
Sandy Wall: Colleen.
Jon Becker: Colleen. Which then kind of creates a little more impetus. And then 93, we have the Waco siege, which obviously creates all kinds of tension, both good and bad, for special tactics worldwide. But also in Texas, even though it wasn't a Texas op, it was an FBI op, it certainly put the focus of the tactical community in that part of Texas. 90, Sandy, when do you actually, when does Paul first lure you into involvement with TTPOA?
Sandy Wall: I was. I remember like it was yesterday. It was 1995. We were down in Arlington, Texas, at the time, the SWAT athletic competition, what we call the. Back then they were called the police Olympics. I think they're still in organization, but they ran that TTPOA didn't have anything to do with it. And we went down there and competed.
I know Austin was there, Dallas was there, a lot of the major teams in Texas. And after the competition was over the next year, it was going to be held in Houston. And I had already met with a representative of the police athletic Federation and showed them what we could do for them. And so I had a nutshell of how it was going to run.
So they asked me to step up in front of the group and tell them about where this is going to be next year, what it's going to be like. So I did. And after it was over with, Paul comes walking up to me. He said, hey, we need to talk. And that's where I got the spiel. And he was basically saying, look, I can run the organization, but I need somebody to be the president. I'll handle the magazine, I'll handle the money, but I need somebody to grab this thing by the horns and run with it.
And I'm looking at him like, I don't know what you're talking about. Top four or five jack and cokes. Somehow he convinced me to do it, and so I wasn't elected yet. I had to go to the following meeting, which Paul hosted there in Austin. And we had our winter conference, which at the time was the only thing we did.
And it was just mainly a few lectures, and I think maybe they had one class off site that was about it. It was probably not more than 70, 80 people there, SWAT officers. And we had the election right there. And they elected me. They said, Paul said, Sandy's going to run. And everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's in. At least the ones that were still sold were voted for me. And then they hand me this shoebox with some papers.
And, of course, I soon realized the organization is invalid. I wasn't even elected by the bylaws, the way they're written. I was supposed to be elected. We had lost our incorporation status with the state of Texas. We didn't have a 501 C3. They were telling me we couldn't do that, which I found out later we could, and we did, but. And we were broke, looking at Paul like, what the h*** can you get me into? And so that's the rest of the system.
Paul Ford: Okay, so, yeah, the truth was, Sandy, that there wasn't any money to handle. We didn't have any. And handling the membership consisted, did consist of that shoebox that you got and all those pieces of paper with people that probably hadn't paid dues in two years and couldn't figure out. I couldn't figure out, you know, who was an active member or not. So we were. I mean, yeah, we had the foundation for a tactical community, but we hadn't really organized it yet, Jon.
Sandy Wall: We had to pass the hat at the meeting or at the conference in order to pay the hotel bill so that Paul didn't have to go to jail.
Jon Becker: Yeah, so, you know, there are moments in TTPOA lore that even in California I hear about the passing of the hat. In the basement of the Ramada Inn is one of those moments. Paul, do you try to defend yourself there or just go ahead and admit to it now?
Paul Ford:
We had to have that conference to kind of just break even to pay for a magazine and to pay for what we spent at that conference, we had to have that conference, the registrations. You know, I tell you, Sandy, at the beginning the magazine was a big expense for the association, but it was. And I think maybe today magazines are not as big a deal, or having a newsletter isn't as big a deal for a tactical association, I think, as it was back then.
But back then it was kind of the standard. If you're going to be a tactical association, you're going to have a publication. You know, the Florida SWAT association had a magazine. NTOA, of course, had tactical edge. When Cato formed in California, one of the first things Ken Hubbs did was to have a publication to go along with it. And it was the way that we communicated. It was our platform for communicating and informing. But it was also the suck of money that came out of the association every quarter.
Sandy Wall: I would agree with that. And I would say it was the face of the organization that gave us some credibility. And I can remember going into corporations around Houston trying to, you know, get some money. And the first thing I do is slap that magazine down in front of a CEO or somebody, and he'd look at it. It was very professionally done, at least by the standards at the time.
And he thought, wow, these guys, they got their own magazine. You know, they got officers, they do training around the state. Wow, they must. They have their stuff together. Little did he know we were sliding by the seat of our pants. In fact, I can remember Paul telling me, Sandy, we need to do a class and get some revenue. I cannot afford to publish the next magazine until we do. And then now we're scrambling, trying to put together a class.
Jon Becker: Yeah, I think that is a recurring theme among all the associations. It's easy in a modern information environment to forget that in 1992, 93, 94 there was no Internet. There was no – You just go find an article. The way that information was shared in the tactical community was through TTPOAs magazine, Florida SWATs magazine, and NTOAs magazine. And the number of people that belong to multiple associations just so they could read. The magazine was. Was a pretty high number.
Sandy Wall: Yeah. It's funny you should mention the Internet. I told a funny story. When we were all waiting to come online, there was this new thing called the Internet. And I could see these websites popping up, and I didn't know anything about how to do them.
So my point man, it was on my team, and of course, all the guys on my team, I just basically directed them, you're going to do this and you're going to do this. And so I made John our treasurer at the time to take some of the load off Paul. And then I also said he was kind of a techie guy. And I said, you're going to put together a website for us. And so he took me over to a webmaster and we sat there for like 2 hours in his office, and they're talking french. I don't understand any of it. We leave there.
I said, John, do you know what to do? And he said, no, but I'll figure it out. And the next morning, he came into the SWAT office and he looked like crap. I said, what the h*** happened to you, John? He said, I've been up all night building this a website. And I said, do we have one? And he said, come here. And we went over to our little computer that I had borrowed from a little company called compact Computer back at the time that was started in Houston. I had to take the CEO's son out and let him shoot a machine gun to get the computer. But we got it and we powered that thing up and I'll be damned. We had a website and I wanted to kiss him right on the mouth. I didn't, but I wanted to.
Jon Becker: I'm gonna need a rentals, so. All right, so that's like 90. What are we at? 97? 96? 97?
Paul Ford: I think we're 95. Yeah.
Dan Colosanto: Yeah.
Paul Ford: I think when Sandy and I started talking was 94. And by the time things started coming together and we started actually putting out a magazine and talking about the next competition and a conference in Austin was 95.
Jon Becker: So when is the first big TTPOA conference?
Sandy Wall: Austin, Texas? Tell them about it, Paul.
Paul Ford: Yeah, so we had gone to, and this is the part where SWAT guys are competitive. And either if you're on the same team together or you're on different teams in the same association, you're competitive. And we had gone to, I believe, college station up there near Texas A and M and had our conference.
Sandy Wall: We went up there.
Paul Ford: It was a good conference, but it was a small conference. And we were four or five of us on the way back, and we just got to talking in the car and a guy named Kevin Yates, so it's on, the Austin SWAT team, said we're. We're going to make all those guys look like, you know, second place next year. We're going to have the best conference that disassociation's ever had, and we're going to raise the bar, and that's what we set out to do.
I told Kevin when he signed that contract at the hotel to commit to all the things we committed to that. I was, again, terrified that we wouldn't be able to pay for it, but we did, and we ended up having a huge conference, and we had great instructors and huge attendance, and it was fun. We did fun stuff. It was a pivotal moment, I think, for TTPOA, that 98 conference in Austin.
Sandy Wall: To add some numbers to that, John, a big conference before that was about 100, 2130 people. Anytime you went over 100, you were doing good. If you got the 100, 2130, that's excellent. Paul went over 400. That was like a phantom leap, you know, we just couldn't believe it.
Jon Becker: So that is when, you know, that is when TTPOA makes its quantum leap and becomes, you know, one of the biggest conferences in the world.
Sandy Wall: At that point.
Jon Becker: I mean, yeah, that was huge, the number. Yeah, so that's 99? 98?
Sandy Wall: 98 I believe it is. And in 99, we had it in Houston. Of course, Paul's talking about the competition I'm getting with my guys. And we said, we're going to do this even bigger and better. We're going to go over 500. And we did. We went out to clear Lake and we had it at the Hilton out there, right on Galveston Bay, and we went over 500, and then it went to Dallas.
And of course, Mike Finley's involved by them, and he's like, we're going to beat Alliston and Houston and we're going to make this even better. And I think he went to 600. It was just. It was just as it rotated around, every city wanted to do it bigger and better than the city before, just because of who we are. And, you know, that we're always willing to beat the next guy.
Jon Becker: Well, I think it speaks to the culture, TTPOA, and that still exists, right? There still is this, you know, although. Although it is an association, there's an internal, healthy cultural competition that is constantly going on, even among the regions in Texas.
Sandy Wall: Dan could probably speak to that.
Dan Colosanto: Yeah. So at the winter board meeting, we have the different regions, and there's a huge competition as far. I mean, they won't say it out loud, but they're always. I know there was. When I was the region director in region seven, I was always in competition with the region director of region two in Houston. And we'd go back and forth. I remember one meeting, I think it was. Hugo was the, was the region director down there, and he went first and he's like, yeah, I made whatever amount of money he made.
And I went, man, I said, I've made so much money, I don't even know how much, but I know it was more than Hugo. I made it to be like a penny more. And he got mad. He was super competitive. But there is that competition among the regions as to who's bringing in more money and that sort of thing.
Sandy Wall: And of course, all that money's from classes. Those guys gotta go out and work and make those classes happen.
Dan Colosanto: They're working. That's not. I mean, as I like to say, everybody thinks the SWAT fairy comes down and waves her magic wand and these classes happen. I mean, there's a lot of work that goes into not just getting the instructor, finding a place to do the class, and then putting on the class, making sure it's run safely, and everything gets done. And then comes the real hard part, which is taking care of the rosters, making sure the guys are getting the T Cole credit, making sure everything is right for the record keeping and that sort of thing. And it's an administratively heavy load.
Jon Becker: So I'm hearing you say that, Dan, it sounds like you're no longer using Paul's shoebox strategy.
Dan Colosanto: No, we're a little bit more advanced than the shoebox at this point.
Jon Becker: It's. Yeah, some traditions.
Jon Becker: Just a little.
Paul Ford: I guess we always hoped it would get there, Dan.
Dan Colosanto: It's there.
Jon Becker: So, Sandy, before we more modern ERA TTPOA, I want to go back and just kind of early evolution of special tactics in Texas. You and I have talked in the past about things that were drivers, and one of those was the relationship between Houston and the tier one teams. Can you talk about that for a minute?
Sandy Wall: Yeah, absolutely. I would say before we really started developing that expertise with those guys, we were pretty much a surround and negotiate, you know, call out, gas them out. We would call ourselves a hostage rescue, but I can't think of any that we – If we did it, we didn't do it very well because we didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't have, I didn't know anybody in San Antonio or anybody in Austin or anybody in Dallas, so we just didn't have other expertise that took to call on.
So we're figuring this out as we go. And I call it inbred training. We're learning from the guys that were here before me. They're just passing it down, the mistakes, and we're trying to get better at it. But somewhere along the line, and my memory escapes, who actually, if they reached out to us or we reached out to them, but at the time, the economy was not that good and we had a lot of older buildings in Houston that were going to be torn down or needed to be torn down.
And somehow these guys from Fort Bragg, everybody knows who I'm talking about, came down and said, we'd like to develop a relationship with you guys, and if you'll go out and show us these buildings, introduce us to the owners, and we'll negotiate the deal. We'll bring people down here, we'll train. You can train with us.
In fact, when the deal is over, you can send a team up to Fort Bragg and we'll train with you up there. And, you know, I grew up in the Vietnam era, and I just wasn't a real big, I guess, not that I didn't like the military. I wanted to join the army, but after Vietnam, I had a just sour taste in my mouth and I was thinking, you know, what really can these guys do?
And then the first time I went out with them and I went, oh, my God. They were showing us stuff that I hadn't even imagined, and they were showing us how we really should be training and operating. And of course, the force multiplier with that is we're spreading them to the teams around us. After these guys would get on their C-140 and fly back to Fort Bragg, we're taking all this knowledge that we learned, we're splitting it around to other guys, and everyone is getting better.
And then, of course, it wasn't long we got involved with TTPOA, and not only are we sharing what we knew, but we're bringing in guys that had now retired from that unit of, and they're kind of got their own shingle hanging up and they're, you know, a gun for hire now. And they're going around and teaching what they were teaching the operators at Fort Bragg. They're teaching the law enforcement now, and we're bringing them in and it's just, I can't imagine.
And nothing to take away from the seals because the SEALs came to, we learned from them as well. We just had more of a relationship with the Bragg guys, but both of them tier one operators, we learned so much and I'm telling you, they probably save lives, not only the hostages but ours because we would have screwed it up trying to, you know, what we – To be what we eventually became.
Jon Becker: Yeah, it's interesting because you see the same thing in the west coast, you see the same thing in Florida where, you know, the tier one teams develop out of Munich and on the heels of Munich and, you know, 84 Olympics happens. Everybody's engaging with, with the SEAL teams, they're engaging in bright with the guys in braggest and you just see this kind of catalytic effect of law enforcement working with military units and military units come to law enforcement to learn about urban environments, law enforcement is going to military to learn about tactics. And it just creates this kind of synergistic relationship that I think makes everybody better in a hurry.
Sandy Wall: Yeah, I would add to that, I recently wrote a book just kind of based on my career, but a large portion of it is my SWAT career. And in the book I tell a lot of stories of our interaction with those guys and almost every story ends with the title, these guys are crazy because, I mean, the things, the, I guess the safety limits that they were willing to push even in training, we would, like, really? Are we really going to do that?
Like, yeah, I can remember once they crashed a little bird and it was at night, they crashed it and they had two operators on either side. The little bird flipped on its side, had two operators pinned underneath it. We're running over there trying to get this helicopter off these guys to get it. The other two jumped off and hit the target. And while we were over there trying to save these guys lives, underneath the little bird, these guys are hitting the target.
And when they came back, I'm like, what the h*** have you guys been? They said, well, we hit the target. I said, like a helicopter crash. And he said, well, that's what we'd have done in a real deal. And then I look at him and I realize these are guys at a level that I can't even imagine. I mean, we would have called a real world event, stopped everything and focus, not them.
If that's what they would do in a real deal, that's what they did. And I mean, I just, it was a mindset that I don't think I could ever, I know I could never get to. And they were at a level I can never get to. But, oh, my God, did we learn from those guys?
Jon Becker: I think another catalyst for development, explosive entry, starts largely in Texas. It happens in a variety of places, but it develops pretty quickly in Texas. And I think that's because of your relationship with Alan Brosnan, right?
Sandy Wall: Yeah, Paul, you probably speak to that. Yeah.
Paul Ford: Allen was one of the early supporters of the association. He would come and he would pay money and advertise in our publications. He would submit articles. He came to our conferences for free, and he would provide this training. And he was a close friend and a strong ally of the TTPOA all through those nineties as we were developing. And I think by and large, Alan is, has done the same thing all over the country.
He's a, you know him, Sandy Dan knows him. He's a really interesting person and a very unselfish person. And he was also one of those, one that, you know, he fits in and that he wants, he wants to, he wants to help you. He wants, you know, you to rise, you know, to, to another level. Just like the tactical communities in California and Florida were helping Texas to rise up in the nineties. Alan was the same way, and it was just a great relationship.
Jon Becker: Yeah, I think there were a handful.
Jon Becker: Of people that kind of nationally were populating knowledge. Allen Brosnan, from teased being one of those, Sandy, Paul, who were the early movers, I've heard you refer to the Fab five, you know, Houston, Austin, Dallas, San Antonio and Abilene. I get that, right?
Sandy Wall: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. You had Mike Finley. We brought him on a little bit later, but Mike hit the ground running and took off and did great things for the association. Shannon couch was in it from the very beginning. He was there before me or Paul, although, you know, he, being from Abilene, a smaller town, and kind of out in West Texas, he was limited. But that guy was always there. He was always a hard worker. And somehow, he, if he said he was going to do it, he did it.
And then, you know, you get over San Antonio, you got a guy named George J. Hamp, several other guys, Eddie, Moe, the list goes on and on. But they were not as active in the association back then as terms of like, being a regional director or a board member. But when we needed them to host a class or host a conference, they stepped up and they did their part. So, yeah, those are the names that come to mind for me. Paul, can you add?
Paul Ford: No, I would just say that, number one, it was Shannon couch and Abilene. Mike Finley, yourself and myself. But we had departments that supported us, our commanders, and our rank structure. In our departments, they were behind us. They let us take city time to do TTPOA business sometimes. And we had teammates who were like, okay, you're the guy that TTPOA, but we're your team.
So we always had guys within our unit that were pitching in the, and kind of forming a cell around us to help out. Definitely couldn't have done all the things we did, just the four of us. But I think it's those four, those four guys that were kind of, you know, making the call to action in those first three or four years.
I mean, we were really having to like, hey, you know, join the TTPOA, you know, do something, host a class, you know, send an article in for the command magazine. This stuff isn't free, you know, it costs money to run this association, you know, so, I mean, those four guys were the ones making the call to action. But as the herd kind of grew, you know, we started kind of snowballing, got a lot of momentum.
Jon Becker: Yeah, I mean, at some point, TTPOA is bringing in national level experts, Sid Heal and Ron McCarthy and the guys that are kind of leading the charge nationally. You are pulling them in, and then it's not long after that that you are becoming the national experts. Right?
And Sandy Wall is teaching all over the United States and testifying all over the United States. Within a period of about ten years there, there was a massive transition from a fledgling organization to one of the strongest associations in the country.
Sandy Wall: Yeah, I would agree with that. And then we relied a lot on the NTOA. Right? At first to bring us talent like the Ron McCarthys and the Sid Hills and those guys that came down. And then we started branching out into the tier one groups and the black ops guys that were coming in, and then we started developing our own cadre, and we relied a lot on Paul Howe for a while, and he had already retired from the army and helped us out a lot.
But now the association, although they still bring in those world class guys and those guys with those experience that only a person that has been over in a hostile environment and had to fight your way in, do the job, fight your way out, and they're going up against trained soldiers instead of idiots, like a lot of times we do.
But we have a talent base now within the association, and I'm super proud of. And some of the things, I guess, that I'm just as proud of not only what I did for the association, but I brought in a guy like Paul Hershey who became a president of the association and took it to the next level. And then a Gary Heath. Those guys were all from Houston, so they were, I guess, learning from me not because I was doing it right, but what probably what not to do, but then became a leader within the association to take it to the next level.
And as I've told Dan more than once, because he gives me and Paul a lot of credit and you know, okay, I'll take a little bit of it. But we were about building a foundation and as you guys know, there's no structure that can stand if it's got a crumbling foundation. We built that foundation, but those guys built the tower on top of the foundation and it's still going up. I mean, every conference I go to, I'm amazed at what they've done with what we started with.
Jon Becker: So let's talk about that for a minute. So Dan, you're the current president, TTPOA. Talk to me about the current TTOA.
Dan Colosanto: All right. So right now we just, we're on our third website. Had to throw that out there. We have, so we're kind of in a transition getting from the people from the old one that's come back. So we're at pulled some numbers for you that you asked. We're about to be about 2000 members right now that we have signed up, that we still have people signing up because of the new website.
As far as the conferences go, I think the biggest one we ever had was 700 last year we were at about 600 registered, but we had about 1000 attendees. We've been staying pretty steady at about 1000 attendees. Now between signed up people and people coming to the vendor show, we had about 600 last year.
So I know one story they told was vendors. They had like 13 vendors at the first conference. And on TMPA podcast I told them, I said yeah, well, and this is true, we had 13 in the lobby because they wouldn't fit in the ballroom. So we were – Andy Atkins does a phenomenal job with that. We had about 200 vendors last year and we have 97 sign up now. So we're on track to stay around 200 plus. And the vendor show for us drives the train, talking about going to different places. We need about 50,000 sqft for a hotel to have the vendor show. And if they don't have that, we have to try to find another spot. So we're kind of, there's not, you'd be surprised. There's not many places that have that.
Jon Becker: No, it's nationally that, yeah, that is a true national level show. I mean, there are shows that regard themselves as national level shows that are not as large as the TTPOA conference, and it is certainly one of the top two or three in the country consistently.
Dan Colosanto: We had a waiting list last year. We'll probably have a waiting list again this year.
Jon Becker: That's fantastic! Talk to me about training. I know TTPOA does a lot of training both at a regional and association level. Tell me a little bit about what TTPOA is currently doing training wise.
Dan Colosanto: So training wise, we have, the last I checked, we had about 84 classes for this year. For this year into next year, we had probably, we did probably over 150 last year. The regional directors do that. They handle most of the year round training. They're kind of the glue that kind of keeps everything together. As far as the training goes, we have a myriad of instructors. One of the things we do as an organization is our goal. Our mantra, if you will, is we provide training. That's our mission.
The agencies and the end users decide how they're going to do it. We've been talking about explosive breaching. We offer explosive breaching from all the big three people that do it, from Alan Brosn, from Phetheme, Mister Cherry. He does it. And we provide that training. Same thing with tactics. We have army guys, we have Navy guys, we have officers, we have our own cadre guys that do it.
Same thing with shooting. We have world champion shooters and we have our own cadre guys. If you come to this year's conference and you want to shoot and you don't shoot, it's your fault because we have several world champions. We have Ben Stugger, we have Matt Pranka, we have Dan Brokos, we have, I mean, Rob Vogel. I mean, we have all kinds of instructors during the year we've had, Rob Latham has taught up in region seven, so we're bringing in all these instructors. So you have your choice.
And the good thing about it is the region directors can reach out to their regions and say, hey, I can call up and go, hey, I need a class from Sandy Wallace, or I need a class on tactical basket weaving. And we will find the guy or the girl and we will have that class. So those guys do a good job. Like I said, they're kind of the glue that keeps the organization rolling throughout the year. And I think we're one of the only associations that do off site training like that continuously throughout the year.
So those guys stay pretty busy because, like I said, it's not just putting on the class and bringing the instructor. That's the easy part. The hard part is all the admin work that goes along so that these guys get the credit for the training.
Sandy Wall: Phenomenal!
Jon Becker: Yeah, it really is. I mean,that is a full time training business that is, you know, turning out thousands of students a year. And the idea that it grew from, you know, literally everything is in a shoebox is kind of a staggering concept. And the thing that blows my mind.
Sandy Wall: It's run by volunteers. None of these guys get a dime.
Dan Colosanto: We all do it at our own.
Sandy Wall: Time for the right reason.
Dan Colosanto: One of our things that we talk about and we talked about with the NTOA was like some standard stuff. So there's. There's base for basic SWAT in Texas. There is a. The course has to be a minimum of 60 hours. And there's certain topics that have to be covered within. Within the class. You can go over 60 hours, but it has to be a minimum of 60. And some of the class, it's like team composition, SWAT history, legal liability. I think gas is in there, too.
Some other gas insertion and less lethal. And then you can kind of freelance after that. But those. There's specific topics, and I may be leaving some out, but there's specific topics that need to be covered. But the one thing we discovered was, and that's for T Col, there is nothing for advanced SWAT. Now, we've been doing advanced SWAT and most guys would agree, most of our regions, it's hostage rescue based. So it's hostage rescue topic.
So what I tasked the, our training advisory board with at our winter meeting is, hey, we need to come up with a set of standards for advanced SWAT. Hey, it's got to be 40 hours. And these are the topics that need to be covered. And put that through to TCOL. So we get an actual T Col number for advanced SWAT. So now we can say, look for in Texas for basic SWAT, you got to have this class.
And these are the criteria for advanced SWAT. You have to have this class. And these are the criteria because those are the big two that we do. And a lot of the guys that do those classes are volunteers. We're lucky the agencies let those guys come on their training time. And it's very for us. We really try hard to make the training inexpensive, as inexpensive as possible.
Jon Becker: I think one thing that's unique about TTPOA is some state associations find themselves in the middle of the political dialogue about setting standards, about the way law enforcement interacts with state government. And it does seem to me that you guys have made a conscious choice to stay out of that.
Dan Colosanto: Yes, we have. Again, I'm lucky I have these guys. They mentioned Gary Heath. Gary Heath's the one who got me. He jumped me in, as they say, at one of the Dallas conferences. So I'm lucky because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. I have these guys to rely on. I call them a lot. Hey, if I'm screwing this up, please call me and tell me that you're doing something stupid. I kind of joke with Gary Heath and call him the special assistant to the president, because I've called him many times ago, hey, I'm about to do this. And he goes, maybe you should do this instead. Shannon Couch is on the board. He's our secretary.
And so I have him to rely on a lot of times, but none. And I'm going off of what was done before me, and we never got into that. We never got involved in that. And I don't think that's something that, as long as I'm the president, we're not going to get involved in it, because our job is training. Our job isn't getting involved in politics. We don't do that. We just don't. I don't think it's a good idea. We have too much other stuff to worry about getting guys trained and getting some guys, because there's a lot of agencies that can't afford it. We have a tremendous number of guys. You'd be surprised.
I mean, Sandy and Paul know they pay their own way. I mean, not everybody's that lucky where their agency pays. I've had guys come to class going, I paid my own way, paid my own hotel, paid for my own ammo, and I got a soft spot in my heart for that. And I'm like, all right, well, we're comping your spot to this class. We'll refund your money because you had to pay this other stuff.
So it's very important for me and the region guys know, hey, listen, you know, you got a guy like that compass spot? Cause that's part of our deal. As the 501 C3, we donate a lot of training. We give free spots out a lot to agencies that they just don't have the budgets.
Jon Becker: Well, I think you touched on something that is an essential role that the associations play, which is Texas is one of the largest countries in the world. Even though we see it as part of the United States, it may see itself as an independent country, and it's a mixed bag of large full time teams and very small part time teams. And I think an important role in the association plays is to bring the lessons learned from the full time team, from the national level experts down to teams that otherwise might not have that opportunity.
Dan Colosanto: Yeah, and I think we do a really good job of that. The big five, they play a major role in instructing for us. And I think one of the other things that I'm proud of is I think if you go across the regions and you go to a basic squat, you're going to get the same stuff. Pretty much. I mean, there's different ways. And what I'm fond of saying is, hey, what we can do in Garland, they may not be able to do down in Laredo. You know, what they do in Houston, we may not be able to do.
So some of that stuff also depends on what resources you have. Not everybody has a bearcat. Not everybody has a rook. Not everybody has these tools. So you have to give them other options to still solve the problems are the same, but we have to give them, our challenge is to give them options to solve these problems. Maybe not without the same tools that other teams have, because they still have to get solved.
I mean, the barricaded guy is the barricaded guy, no matter where he's at. And it's, you know, I mean, the way you're, the way to resolve it is probably similar, but you may not have the same tools and resources as others to do that.
Paul Ford: And I would say, looking from the outside now as a, you know, as a person in business, as a non police officer, but someone still involved with law enforcement, what I see now is in the nineties, yeah, we were able to get people to have PT tests and have a real selection process to choose your SWAT team.
But what you guys have done now seems the way that teams approach a mission, their tactics and their technology that they apply to it, that's what you guys have got everybody on a one sheet of music in a really big state, a lot of spread out geography in a lot of people, which is quite amazing for me.
Dan Colosanto: Yeah, it's a challenge, but I think the technology piece is huge. But again, it goes back to not everybody has the same technology. And before I forget, I do want to mention one thing. We talked about the magazine. The magazine's all digital now. We stopped mailing it out, but it's still there. But it's the trend that everybody else is going to like. Sandy said, you don't find many published magazines from the associations. And our while I was at shot show.
Paul Ford: I did have somebody put in my hand CATO field command color publication. So not to be competitive with CATO, but I just let you know that.
Dan Colosanto: Yeah, well, you know, I think, as you said, it costs money to publish the magic. Trying to – That's right. Trying to save a tree. Trying to kind of put that money somewhere else.
Jon Becker: Well, you do raise a valid, interesting point, though, is the stronger associations now, Dan, seem to have a higher level of integration than they've had in the past. I know that you and Brent Stratton from TTPOA and Chris Aquin from Florida Swad. And you guys are talking, Nick Sprague and RMTTA are talking more regularly, kind of at a national level. Talk to me about that.
Dan Colosanto: Yeah, that's. I'll give props to Nick. He kind of set that up. We had our first, it's been maybe last year, we had our first Zoom president Zoom meeting, and we're kind of doing it on a regular basis now. So all the presidents that can make it, we have a Zoom meeting discussing different things. As far as you know. Hey, how are you doing vendors, how are you vetting instructors? What do you guys do for the membership? What are your bylaws like? We're kind of getting on the same page as far as that stuff goes association wise, which is really good, and it's good to meet with those guys. And some of them are starting associations.
So the bigger associations, like us and Cato and Florida are trying to help these guys out. Like, hey, this is what I would suggest. It kind of reminded me of Paul and Sandy story, the one guy's like, yeah, we're trying to do this. We got this hotel. And, you know, I go, man, I would start with debriefs. Just get some debriefs. Get some people over there before you try to expand into the, you know, a larger, a larger deal.
But, you know, they – The story is the same. I mean, the way they're starting out, it's the same. It's the same thing. But I think it's important that we're all meeting and discuss because the problems are the same. It's just the people are different. They're running into the same things.
But I think it's, you know, at least as far as tactics and the way things are going, you know, we can, we can talk that out and figure out, hey, this is what we doing. What are you guys doing? But again, it goes, it goes like my analogy in Texas, you know, what we can do in Texas, they may not be able to do in California or Colorado. And what they do in Colorado, we may not be able to do so. But it's still good to talk that out. And I think the important thing is that we are all together talking about things and the issues that we're each facing and the challenges, because in a lot of respects, they're the same.
Jon Becker: Yeah, 100%. And although tactics, although the political will changes geographically, tactics don't. Right. Like the challenge is, you said America's America. Like everybody is faced with barricades, and I don't care what state you're in, there are barricades. The more teams and associations are sharing information. You say these analogy raise our polls and raising all boats. Everybody is getting better by sharing information. There is not an overabundance of quality information in the environment. So the more you guys are interacting, it seems the better the entire community gets.
Dan Colosanto: I agree 100%.
Jon Becker: So, Dan, if people want to learn more about TTPOA, how do they find it?
Dan Colosanto: Go to the website,. If you go up there now, our conference stuff is up there. 40th anniversary. We're hoping to make a big splash for the 40th. So everything's up there now. All the information for the conference,. you can sign up, join up. You don't have to be from Texas. We'll let you come from the outside. We don't even charge you extra for that.
Jon Becker: So is that true even if you're from California, though?
Dan Colosanto: I like Brent. Brent's a good guy. So we kind of made a little agreement. We kind of made a treaty. So it's all good. So we let those guys in. But, yeah, everything's on the website. Brand new website. Thanks to Aaron, Marco and those guys,. All the information about the association is right there.
Jon Becker: So Sandy, is that this is the last year that you will be involved or be on the border with TTPOA? Is that the truth?
Sandy Wall: That's the truth. All things good things must come to an end. And I recognize that there's other people that can step up and do and offer something new, fresh ideas, fresh energy. And that's a good thing. When I left HPD SWAT, I was probably still a decent operator, but I'd lost a step, and I knew that, and I had other things I could be doing that were probably more beneficial in the long run.
And it's same thing here. My time has come. I'm just so grateful to the guys for letting me hang around even after my usefulness was over. But I'm stepping away from the board. I will still always be there. And anything I can do to help the association, I will, because it has paid untold benefits back to me for whatever effort I ever put in.
Dan Colosanto: And I did talk them into being the emcee for the, for the banquet.
Sandy Wall: So one last hurrah?
Dan Colosanto: One last hurrah. Absolutely.
Jon Becker: I love it! Well, I feel like an appropriate place for us to wrap up would be to go back to each of you guys. And what do you think looking back now over the evolution of TTPOA? What do you think people need to know about TTPOA or about the evolution of SWAT in Texas that we haven't covered? Paul, you wanna go first?
Paul Ford: Sure. Yeah. I think the thing that inspired me and the thing that continues to inspire me, I'm amazed when I, when I go to my own department here in Austin and I see who those guys are, what their capabilities are. Same goes with TTPOA. I'm amazed when I go to the conferences and see what you guys accomplish every year and you seem to top it. My parting word would be is that it's going to advance. It's going to continue to get better. It's gonna, you know, your capabilities are gonna continue to increase, but only if we have this kind of community.
Only if we have this kind of, you know, interagency association where people can share, people can learn from each other. It's gonna get, it's gonna get, it's going to continue to get better and more sophisticated, more technology aided. So whatever we did for the last 30 years, I don't know, but it's gotten better. And congratulations to guys like Dan and Sandy who've stuck with it and continue to push it uphill.
Jon Becker: Dan, you want to take us next?
Dan Colosanto: Yeah, I think it's a great organization. As I said, we're still trying to build. My goal was to obviously make it better than it was when I started. And I have no doubt that the people who come after me will make it better than whatever it is that we're doing right now. But we provide some good training, it's affordable, and we're out there as an asset to these agencies that need help with training. So I think we have nowhere to go but up. Hopefully.
Jon Becker: Sandy Wall?
Sandy Wall: Well, I'd like to finish with the way I started talking about the original SWAT team in 1974. Those guys were handpicked and selected and volunteered to do a job that they had no clue. And they got a little bit of training from the get go, but after that, it was trial and error, and they learned from their own, and they weren't getting any extra pay. They were doing it for the right reason. They didn't have an association to call on. They didn't have outside instructors that were coming around and spreading information and showing expertise. They learned by trial and error, and they pass it on to guys like me.
And then I met a guy named Paul Ford who changed my life, and we started trying to build this association who other guys had started, and we took it to another level, and then guys like Dan had taken it to another level. But I will say this, that before I got involved in association, I didn't know anybody in Austin or San Antonio or Dallas or anywhere El Paso. And now every city of any size, I've got somebody there that I know, and a lot of them I've met, and if nothing else, sat in a hospitality suite and we talked about, when you all do this, how do you do that? Or, oh, my God, never do this, because this did not work out well.
And you're like, what happened? And then you visualize, God, that could have been me. I need to go back and learn from this. So that's fostering those relationships, fostering those ideas, and bringing all of those smaller agencies up to a level that they could have never imagined, if not for their association or for this association and learning and the exposure that it's given them. So hats off to TTPOA, and everything is done for me, and I just can't say enough. And God bless you, Dan, for still carrying the flag.
Dan Colosanto: Thank you, sir! Hey, you're still going to be advisor to the president, even though you're not going to be on the board.
Sandy Wall: I'm here for you.
Jon Becker: Well, guys, thank you. I mean, I hope you realize that The contributions that each of you made not only made officers in Texas, but officers all over the country safer. And, you know, let's hope that that dad is going to take this to an entirely different level, and the guys that follow him will be the same.
Dan Colosanto: We're going to hope that Dan doesn't screw it up. He's going to try hard not to.
Sandy Wall: You got it, brother.
Jon Becker: All right, guys, thank you so much, and thanks for being with me!
Sandy Wall: Jon, thanks for the opportunity!
Paul Ford: Thank you, Jon!
